let's see how much all of you guys have learned so far ?

[Peter Tommasini]

So in the video from your first post, he openly admits he did not use a paper pattern. I’m thinking that would have helped get the panel cut out the correct size, and showed where the shape was needed. Maybe his first video should have been on paper patterns.

So in the same way Eastwood puts out videos to sell stuff, this video must be an advertisement for the unknowing to buy his eqpt and classes.

That is it ! He only doing this to sell more of his crap and built up is YOU TUBE rating,
Peter T.

[Chris_Hamilton]

Watching the Geoff Moss videos again (will probably need to watch many more times for the info to stick to my pea sized brain) I was struck by how small his Shop is (at least how it appears on the video) and the relative lack of big fancy machines and equipment. To me that is inspiring and also telling. He is talking about how production work was accomplished essentially by hand. And him essentially saying there is no substitute for knowledge AND experience.

Figured I'd post this here in case anyone hasn't seen it. One of OZ's own won a Churchill Scholarship and went to England to study traditional coachbuilding. I assume a requirement of the Scholarship is to write a report when finished. It's a good read and has a lot of nice pictures as well. PDF format around 61mb. Well worth a read.

https://churchilltrustapp.secure.for...ceDownload=Yes

[Peter Tommasini]

Watching the Geoff Moss videos again (will probably need to watch many more times for the info to stick to my pea sized brain) I was struck by how small his Shop is (at least how it appears on the video) and the relative lack of big fancy machines and equipment. To me that is inspiring and also telling. He is talking about how production work was accomplished essentially by hand. And him essentially saying there is no substitute for knowledge AND experience.

Figured I'd post this here in case anyone hasn't seen it. One of OZ's own won a Churchill Scholarship and went to England to study traditional coachbuilding. I assume a requirement of the Scholarship is to write a report when finished. It's a good read and has a lot of nice pictures as well. PDF format around 61mb. Well worth a read.

https://churchilltrustapp.secure.for...ceDownload=Yes

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Robert Siemsen come to see me after coming back from England ,we had a GOOD chat for nearly the whole day about the Traditional way, he lives in Dubbo NSW . On the report you can also see a picture of Daniel Kostakakis another good friend of mine ,who came to me about 15/16 Years ago as a young man and wanting to learn , it was then that I suggested to him to travel to England to learn the trade . He did ! .....Landed at Aston Martin and he is still there today, every now and then he sends me some picture of his work and BOY ! His work is of an incredible standard . As you all have seen on all of those pictures of panels and bodies been made .... the English traditional way works ! Stick to it !
Peter T.

[Peter Tommasini]

Hi guys.....one page one ''Continuation'' please watch the second video I posted
Peter T.

[abarthdave]

Hi guys.....one page one ''Continuation'' please watch the second video I posted
Peter T.

Here is the link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PV4CEPlGWPQ

in the first minute or so , if you look in the background you see cases of ????? marked TOXIC ,

What can that be ?

Not sure if I can get thru the whole video , but will try .....

I gave up.....I do not want to fill my brain up with wrong ways of doing stuff , its better if I search YouTube for videos in Italian or German and Google translate the sub titles.

[Chris_Hamilton]

in the first minute or so , if you look in the background you see cases of ????? marked TOXIC ,

What can that be ?

Those are OSHA Fire Proof storage cabinets. Store paint related materials in them. In a state like Massachusetts it's a requirement to have them in order to be compliant and to get Insurance.

[Blue62]

Well I watched the second video
After 90 some minutes of video I am still waiting for some good basic instruction on how to wheel a panel
Wasn't that what the video's were supposed to be about??????
The more I watch his video's and listen to him talk the more I realize how poor his methods are.
He does a lot of work to a panel for very little if any gain.
Much the same results I had when trying to learn the English wheel on my own.

When I watch Peters video's I see that the panel is always moving in the direction or shape that Peter is going for.
Doesn't matter if he is blocking on the stump or bag, using the wheel, a hammer and dolly, a baton on a reverse.
Doesn't matter the method.
Everything Peter does to a panel seems to move the panel to the shape he wants.
If Peter sees the panel is not going in the direction he wants he changes what he is doing so it does.
Peter sees the problem in two or three wheel strokes or two or three hammer blows.

Our friend Wray spends large amounts of time working a panel with very little results.
So what I think I have learned from all this is:
If I am working a panel and it seems that it is not going the direction or into the shape I want.
I am most likely doing something wrong.
If I have to bend it and clamp it to the buck with 8-10 clamps.
Then I am most likely doing something wrong.

On another note I have been trying the shape in shape out exercise lately.
I can get a very nice even raise to the panel. all four corners setting on the bench.
I can control the panel and the rise pretty well.
Now letting the shape out.....not so well.
I struggle with trying to control letting the shape out and at times it seems nothing is happening.
So I need lots more practice on the shape out part of the exercise.

[Chazza]

Same stage for me David; easy to put shape in but not sure how to take it out on the practice piece,

Cheers Charlie

[Peter Tommasini]

SHAPE OUT

Very easy just need patience!
Right ! this what you do....

(1 ) stretch all edges FIRST ! .......(2) take the pressure right out till the panel is JUST TOUCHING, starting from the middle ... lift lightly towards the top wheel and pull the panel about half way out from the edges (ALL AROUND) ( 3) once that is done, stretch the all edges again then, this time take that shape that you left near the edge right out to the now '' re stretched'' edges.
KEEP DOING THE SAME THING till all the shape from the middle is gone out to the edges . NOTE !!!!!! If any of the the stretched edge becomes tight sooner that you planed make sure to stretch them again , in another words no shape will go out UNLESS! the edges are stretched and wavy, further more you will know when the shape from the middle is gone to the edges when the edges becomes tight from earlier been wavy . If the panel is sounding lake a ''TI CAN '' ? All of that means is that (at that point there is still too much shape) ,so, check where the TIN CAN is ,and stretch that edge again and let the shape out . SOMETIME ! when the edges are stretch this way, you will find that there is some kind of reverse near the edge, WELL THAT IS GOOD NEWS ! All you need to do then is wheel in the middle of that reverse and FILL it flat again level with the rest of the panel using a bit more pressure .

You can look it this way... to put shape in a panel, you keep away from the edges and stretching the middle,( meaning that the center is LONGER THAN THE EDGE) to take shape out you do the reverse, stretch and lengthen the edges and let the shape out ( meaning that the EDGES ARE GETTING LONGER than the center ) SIMPLE , PROVIDING THAT THE PRESSURE ON THE WHEEL IS RIGHT AT EACH EXERCISE !!!!!
Practice this and let me know how you go
Peter T.

[123pugsy]

Thanks Peter.

[Blue62]

SIMPLE , PROVIDING THAT THE PRESSURE ON THE WHEEL IS RIGHT AT EACH EXERCISE !!!!!
Practice this and let me know how you go
Peter T.

Peter,
For an exercise that sounds SIMPLE a person has to pay attention to what the hell he is doing.
I have gotten to the point that I am counting passes to help ensure that I get even crown when raising the panel and counting passes when trying to remove the crown.
I have gotten most of the shape back out of the panel but damn it takes a long time. I did better then the first try
Your explanation helped greatly but I need lots more practice I will keep at it and see if I can improve.

[Peter Tommasini]

Here the latest video from our friend making the rear section of a fender
You WILL CLEARLY SEE THAT THE PANEL DOES NOT FIT THE BUCK THAT WELL PARTICULARLY have a look at the FLOW of the two panels ..you can clearly see that they do not match and that is from the VERY VERY start of the video til 3.31 minutes before he starts welding it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hb3MNUVXnfA

Can someone tell me what is wrong with that panel . Take note between 23.35 and 26.22 you will note that the panel still is too straight at the bottom and top and still not blending after all the wheeling on the added piece RIGHT ON AT 33.31 (stop the video ) and look at the flow between the added panel and the rest of the fender ? what can you see and try to answer why it looks like that

Let's use this example to learn !

All the answers at a later Post

[Chazza]

Well; being a novice my comments will probably not answer Peter's questions, but this is what I think was done poorly. I didn't watch all of it.

1. He mentions that he TIG and MIG welded it. All of the experts oxy-weld.

2. As Peter said, the ends of the panel look too straight.

3. Towards the end, he started wheeling the edge of the panel, when he was trying to raise the centre where the weld is. Doesn't make sense to me.

4. I think I could see a wavy edge there, indicating too much stretch on the edge.

5. No use of the buck, or profiles on the bits I watched; therefore useless as a training film, because we can't see what he is feeling with his hand.

6. He mentions sweaty palms as a problem; this can be easily overcome by using a thin square of leather under the palm, to help it slide. When I was taught the use of a flipper and dolly, my friend gave me his leather and it made it easier for me to feel the lows.

7. He finishes by talking about tipping the flanges and that he will stretch one and shrink the other. Perhaps I misunderstand the shape he is trying to make, but I felt that both needed shrinking.

[neilb]

just over 2 minutes in, stretching on a sand bag at that stage I wouldn't do, against a dolly yes on the tack welds as using a sandbag allows metal to be pulled from all around rather than stretching the spot at the hammer striking point when using a dolly. it would have been much better to get the parts to fit and be the correct shape before welding. i never saw him use the buck but then it didn't fit before he welded the extra material on, so that wouldn't make much difference. personally i would have done all the outer curved shape on the panel before adding the extra and done that in one long piece

[Chris_Hamilton]

I still say anything finished in metal that he shows in the vids or on his site were not made by him. I don't see how it's possible.

[Blue62]

This is what I think I see.
As that panel was wheeled in the center and stretched the edges want to act as if they are shrunk.
So when he welds the second piece on the weld causes more shrinking and pulls shape off the surrounding area.
Then he tries to stretch the weld and pulls more shape off the crown.
Then he wheels the weld and surrounding area and pulls even more shape out of the entire panel.
You can see the tension and shape change on the other edge of the panel as he does it.
Look at the edge in his right hand as he is wheeling the weld. That edge in his right hand looks like it has changed
tension or shape to me.
What I think I see going on is very much like the shape in shape out exercise I have been doing.
That weld line is acting like an edge. The more he tries to stretch or raise it the more it pulls shape out of the rest of the panel.

Peter shows what I am trying to explain in his Youtube video ( English wheel Techniques Part 1 ). At around 2.19 - 5.15 minutes.
It is the video on the under pan or nose pan on the Ferrari Dino buck.
Peter has a drawing on the board and explains it much better then I can.