let's see how much all of you guys have learned so far ?

[Chris_Hamilton]

AT EXACTLY 40.01 TO 40.08 you will see an ELBOW on the middle of the panel ,..... can anyone tell me what is the reason for that ?......
Peter T.

Obviously there is too much material there correct? I think it's from him wheeling/stretching too much in that area which lengthened it and caused the bulge when he forces it to "fit" on the buck. If he had a plan when wheeling and only wheeled in the areas that needed shape that would not have happened. The bulge seems to be a direct result of his haphazard wheeling. Being a novice (at best) on the wheel I don't completely understand how you tighten up the edge when wheeling so I may wrong in my assumptions. Tightening the edge would involve cross wheeling it and getting the edge to turn???

Another question, at the end around 54:30 he has the panel clamped and that bulge is still there. Very prominent. How is he going to remove it without shrinking? He stated at the beginning that he was going to do this entirely with the wheel, no other tools needed. If that is the case isn't that bulge going to be very difficult to remove any way other than shrinking it?

[MP&C]

"don't do any wheeling along the edges, that's verboten"
....as he's been wheeling along the edges for 10 minutes. Yeah, all that wave along the edge is stretch, McFly....

[MP&C]

CONTINUATION

AT EXACTLY 40.01 TO 40.08 you will see an ELBOW on the middle of the panel ,..... can anyone tell me what is the reason for that ?......
Peter T.

His tracking doesn't follow the curve of the panel, he is tracking straight which brings him to that edge each time, stretching the edge.. What a clusterfuck. Way too much stretch along the entire edge where the elbow pops out..

[skintkarter]

Well I think he has a lovely beard and great tits...

Sorry, I couldn't watch the video in more than 3x 10 second snatches and I'm a complete cretin when it comes to wheeling, but a shape like that should surely be shrunk and blocked to approximate shape and then wheeled smooth. It's like a motorcycle mudguard isn't it?

[Moving molecules .]

i do love to watch geoff moss, but to be honest i don't know bill at all he's probably a really nice guy but he comes across as an idiot who's not listening to what's being said

Hi Neil, l haven’t met Geoff as yet, but have seen his Alloy Jaguar E Type bonnet close up.... and they are a work of art (was £3.500 now around £7.000 Which for wealthy people is pocket money)

In the video William from the US is interviewing Geoff and l think he is just getting frustrated about the Questions that William is saying.

Old School disciplined Geoff is ex Aston Martin a place where they took no prisoners and if you couldn’t cut the mustard you were pushed out......!!!!

Geoff & Peter are both the same Old school Master craftsman’s and will always feel frustrated in the new generation of craftsman.... this is natural in most trades I would’ve thought.

It is down to us to have the patience to teach the young of Today..... God help us😂😂.

Any knowledge from the Golden age of Wheeling is priceless........👌

Peter needs to Print a simple book highlighting the art of Metal Shaping like this rare Book used for internal use only.

[Bill Tromblay]

Hi, Do you have a copy of this book, We have been looking for one.
thx Bill

[Peter Tommasini]

OK here some answers .......
Chris..... IF you watch carefully the problem immediately starts at the beginning, ....Wray starts wheeling and not holding the panel the right way, (not supported the way that it should ) ................
then if you watch again he always stop in the middle, then he turns the panel around and again stops in the middle . There is too much shape at the bottom of the panel simply because gravity takes over ( and you can see that in the first couple of minutes ) one more thing to notice is the fact that the panel is only shaping half way, the top of the panel gets very little shaping , that is why it's not going around to meet the very top.........

that panel can be fixed, and the outer edge can be shorten, but Wray needs to change the stile of wheeling . So at this point this is the way that it should be wheeled....

Instead of bending the panel (that's only going to straighten the panel ) he should be opening the panel up and start CROSS WHEELING IT staring from the top , by doing this and pulling down near the edges, BUT!... stopping the runs before the edge. He would then put shape and tighten the edge up and make the edge going over, then re open the panel and wheel length ways and again pull down on the top, and get that top edge going over. NOTE .. by cross wheeling he will also flatten the bottom of the panel as well.

One thing to remember as well,.... at this point he can not shrink that outer edge too much , simply because another panel needs to be welded next to it .

Chriss.. as you can see you where very close to the problem of that panel, and the mistakes that have been made

[Peter Tommasini]

Well I think he has a lovely beard and great tits...

Sorry, I couldn't watch the video in more than 3x 10 second snatches and I'm a complete cretin when it comes to wheeling, but a shape like that should surely be shrunk and blocked to approximate shape and then wheeled smooth. It's like a motorcycle mudguard isn't it?

YES that can be done that way as well SPOT ON !
Peter T.

[Peter Tommasini]

His tracking doesn't follow the curve of the panel, he is tracking straight which brings him to that edge each time, stretching the edge.. What a clusterfuck. Way too much stretch along the entire edge where the elbow pops out..

Robert.....
YES that is another way to put it .......RIGHT ON ! + shape been on the wrong place
Peter T.

[Peter Tommasini]

Excellent points David.👍 "30 years of wheeling" and he's a "Jazz Wheeler" were really interesting.

Another question I have is how much of the finished stuff that we see of his on videos and on his site was actually done by him? Just from watching this video and the videos Peter linked in another thread, I don't see how he goes from the crap he made in this video to the finished stuff we see on his site and in some of the videos. How do you go from a fundamental lack of understanding to but somehow correcting it "off camera" to something that looks good? How is it possible??????

Cynical part of me says someone else is doing the stuff that looks good and then he is representing it as his own. Agree? Disagree?

I do not know how he does it BUT SOMETHING IS GOING ON ?
Peter T.

[Peter Tommasini]

My latest thought is:
If our friend really wants to "teach The Basics of Wheeling".
Then why not a video that demonstrates and fully explains the Shape in and shape out exercise?
He could explain and demonstrate everything from proper body posture to hand position, to tracking, to pressure.
The whys and wherefore's of shaping and wheeling.
That would be a video (done properly) that I would like to see.
I think that would be a video that many of us would benefit from
Our friends video's seem to teach one thing only!!
Our friends video's seem to teach one thing only!!
What not to do!!!
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' ''''''''''''''''''''''''
You are dead right there !
Peter T.

[Blue62]

Video N4 of Geoff Moss's video's
At the beginning of the video Geoff mentions that he is going to do his wash over or finishing passes in one direction only.
From his left to his right or the back of the panel to headlight area direction only.
He explains that if he did a return pass going the other direction, that it would drag shape from the bulbous headlight area back to the rear of the panel and thus destroy the shape.
Being a novice that is a concept I had not thought of.
That just the act of finishing up with very light pressure could still distort a panel if not done properly.
Methodology from beginning to end. WOW
Just the concept of doing finish up passes in a specific direction and why it is done that way on that panel is an eye opener.

[Peter Tommasini]

Video N4 of Geoff Moss's video's
At the beginning of the video Geoff mentions that he is going to do his wash over or finishing passes in one direction only.
From his left to his right or the back of the panel to headlight area direction only.
He explains that if he did a return pass going the other direction, that it would drag shape from the bulbous headlight area back to the rear of the panel and thus destroy the shape.
Being a novice that is a concept I had not thought of.
That just the act of finishing up with very light pressure could still distort a panel if not done properly.
Methodology from beginning to end. WOW
Just the concept of doing finish up passes in a specific direction and why it is done that way on that panel is an eye opener.

Yes what he said is true , meaning if he goes back it will draw the shape off the front (to a point ) so if the panel is equal in shape all along you do not need to go backwards

or in another words going back will create a hollow from where you start the backwards wheeling, keep in mind that only apply when the panel is equal shape and only needs a LIGHT over
Peter T.

[MP&C]

So in the video from your first post, he openly admits he did not use a paper pattern. I’m thinking that would have helped get the panel cut out the correct size, and showed where the shape was needed. Maybe his first video should have been on paper patterns.

So in the same way Eastwood puts out videos to sell stuff, this video must be an advertisement for the unknowing to buy his eqpt and classes.

[Chris_Hamilton]

i do love to watch geoff moss, but to be honest i don't know bill at all he's probably a really nice guy but he comes across as an idiot who's not listening to what's being said

It's probably then a good thing you didn't buy this book. Came out a year and a half or so after those Moss videos. Thought about that as I was watching Moss get irritated with him. I don't mean this as a slight to Mr Longyard. He does seem like a good guy from what I have seen of him on other forums. Just publishing a book on wheeling seems a little ill advised. Honestly though most automotive related books (how to/ technical stuff) is usually chock full of erroneous info. Problem is when you are trying to learn you don't know that. Increases the learning curve rather than lessening it.

https://www.amazon.com/Learning-Engl.../dp/B00SQDNA3C

[neilb]

So in the video from your first post, he openly admits he did not use a paper pattern.

in all honesty i have made panels without a paper pattern, the nose panel on the Porsche was done without paper patterns along with the tops of the front guards. it is possible to do but you have to know where you want shape and know how to put it there. wheeling how he does it doesn't work, as his work shows. confusion when wheeling produces a panel that won't fit