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**Chris_Hamilton** · 09-01-21, 06:51 AM

Notes and thoughts as am I watching this. Watching this is tedious. 20 gauge (.036) to start....how thin is that panel when he finishes? Non hardened bottom wheel and pulls it out under pressure multiple times...how does it not have marks? Emphasis on increasing wheel pressure. Focus on flat wheel but doesn't tell or know that the panel shapes most over the smallest radius on the bottom anvil. Why would you try to do this all on the wheel? Blocking it out then wheeling will get you there a lot faster and the metal won't be near as thinned. Jazz Wheeler???
He mentions tracking patterns and traditional English wheeling "gets old after a while" and him, not liking that and he is good at "learning to read the surface of the panel". How he was wheeling got old after about 2 minutes.

After wheeling and saying he has "four inches" seems you could shrink the edges and be darn near there. Again how thin is this going to be when he is done?

I'm 26 minutes in and got to think you would be a lot farther along blocking and shrinking the edge. Even a noob like me. He puts it in "arrangement" and the edges are screaming to me that they need to be shrunk.

Everything he's doing seems really haphazard and confusing to me. Mentions not stretching the edge of the panel after he just spent 5 minutes stretching the edges??? Puts the shape in the middle and wheels it out of it on the edges?

Sick of the ads. Seven freaking clamps to force it on there! Lines everywhere, more pressure. 51 minutes. Still not fitting. Forcing it to fit by clamping. Bending the panel when he clamps it. Big areas that are begging to be shrunk. I'm getting irritated watching it. Mentions the fundamentals of English wheeling and I can't recall him really mentioning any fundamentals. Just haphazard wheeling to get to a shape that is sorta like the buck but nowhere near it and he doesn't accomplish what he said he would at the beginning of the video.

Full disclosure I fast forwarded through the last 10 minutes or so, so I may have missed something. I was getting irritated watching it. Got to think that panel (which doesn't even cover the part of the buck he was using is going to takes hours longer to actually fit and finish like "chrome plating". But that panel is going in the scrap pile as soon as they turn off the camera.

Big question that pops into my head is how on earth did this guy earn enough to afford all the equipment and tooling in that shop? Here he makes something that looks like a beginners panel and the comments just pour in how great he is. Life is not fair.

I don't want to watch anymore of his videos. I really can't take it.

**neilb** · 09-01-21, 01:06 PM

Originally posted by Chris_Hamilton View Post

I don't want to watch anymore of his videos. I really can't take it.

i know what you mean chris, but the people that leave great comments on his video's are just sheep blindly following the guy with a walking stick. after all if it cost 15k to take his full on class then it must be good yeah?.....

**Peter Tommasini** · 09-01-21, 02:09 PM

Chris you have observed a few thing that are right, I will be explain after a few more comments from others members on this , then one by one I will give you guys the right answers. if all the the right answer are too many..

. well then I will put a video up on the same panel......... (I have a feeling that this is going to be good)

let's go all of you guys give us some input !.......

Also I want you guys to know this tread has nothing to do with bitching about someone , It's to do with learning the do , and the don't , and about learning properly

As I keep saying,..... there are a few ways to skin a cat BUT ! A job needs to be done the best way possible , and the quickest way possible

Peter T.

**Chris_Hamilton** · 09-01-21, 04:17 PM

Peter, right or wrong?

I think he would have been served far better by blocking out the center on the bag stretching the one edge and shrinking the other edge. He mentions at the beginning demonstrating how to make it only using the wheel, nothing else. IMO he didn't come close to doing that if you look at the panel at the end. I don't think it's even possible, if it is, it certainly doesn't seem practical or advisable to do so.

Another thing I thought was wrong was when he was talking about traditional english wheeling, being all about tracking. I thought the idea was to use the form or buck to read the panel and use the wheel to stretch and put shape where it was needed. Like Geoff Moss did in the fender video. The tracking pattern is secondary and only done to keep from putting lines in the panel. And to put the shape in the panel logiclly not haphazardly like in the video. And not a lot of pressure is ever used. Peter has said that a lot of times.

**cliffrod** · 09-01-21, 05:30 PM

I clicked on the link, saw the title/author on the video and hit X. Not enough free time to waste.

I joke with people about stretching your head so more smarts will fit inside of it. But it's not a joke. When I saw choose your Masters well, I'm 100% serious. I know my stone work is off-topic in terms of metalshaping. When I post something, I'm trying to communicate that the often slow & boring process is how consistent results are achieved across advanced crafts. That's like Chris mentioning Peter's instructions about things like light pressure and organized & methodical wheeling. There are no short cuts.

The Metalshaping craft has already come to a fork in the road and split a few decades ago.

one fork- Ron Fournier's 1983(?) book probably directly or indirectly introduced more people to the idea of a fabricated English Wheel and adaptations to working without "old" gear and ways. Ron Covell and others followed. It's nice to think that buying a class, tool or machine will help you skip years or decades of slow progress and hard work. Easy always sells and easy money wrecks a lot of things in life.

the other fork- Men like Peter just kept doing it the old way, as they had been trained. Working and selling labor instead of tools & romance about short cuts. Hard work and slow progress, especially for people doing it as a hobby instead of a livelihood, doesn't appeal to many. But it works best for a reason. Sometimes you have to admit your shortcoming (like lost time) so you can strive to achieve within your actual potential.

The problem is that in general, you cannot take any path except the traveled road. To change from new & novel to old & traditional, you have to go back to the fork & travel along the entire road. You can only help or save people that want to be helped or saved. The rest are lost & hopeless until they decide they need to change.

**Blue62** · 09-01-21, 06:46 PM

My thoughts as a novice with no training. All I have to learn from are videos this forum and my mistakes

The video is titled "English Wheel Basics" The first thing I see missing is a paper pattern. He says he is just showing the basics of wheeling so no paper pattern needed.
But to me knowing where to put the shape is a basic fundamental of wheeling. The second thing I see missing is no demonstration of hand position or body position when wheeling. Right away it looks to me like his hand position on the panel is causing him to wheel a twist into the panel.
When he first starts he shows how he gets the panel into the wheel. If I have to enter at a 45 degree angle then to me that is way to much pressure to start with.
From there on he keeps increasing and increasing the pressure
He mentions "home marks" when he tests the fit on the buck then at 45.27 minutes - 45.44 minutes he says his "home marks" have moved. That tells me he is just chasing the shape all over the panel. So his method is haphazard.
I think if he was going to try that shape just by wheeling that he could have turned the panel 90 degrees and cross wheeled some.
In my mind he would have gotten some of the shape faster.

To me that panel should have started with a paper pattern to show what needed to be done to get the proper shape.
Where it needed to be stretched and any shrinks to get the shape with much less work. Then finished out on the wheel.

BUT this video was supposed to be about "Wheeling Basic's.
All I saw was haphazard fighting of a panel. Any shape he got was from forcing the panel to the buck.
Most of the shape was lost as soon as he removed the claps.
After what he says is 30 years of wheeling experience he wheels like I did when I started with no experience.
I still chase shape around a panel like he does but I am slowly learning that I have to be very methodical.
I have to use a paper pattern. I have to have a logical step by step process thought out before I begin.
I have to have control of the panel ever second.
I have to really watch where and how I wheel. I have to hold the panel a certain way.
He shows none of those "Basics".

Peter,
I am really happy that you have chosen to approach this latest video in this way.
Getting forum members like myself to express their views on how to make a panel or the rights and wrongs on wheeling.
Then after some discussion by members having you point out the right and wrong of it all, is going to be like having a teacher in a classroom.
I think its great.

**Chris_Hamilton** · 09-01-21, 07:24 PM

Excellent points David.👍 "30 years of wheeling" and he's a "Jazz Wheeler" were really interesting.

Another question I have is how much of the finished stuff that we see of his on videos and on his site was actually done by him? Just from watching this video and the videos Peter linked in another thread, I don't see how he goes from the crap he made in this video to the finished stuff we see on his site and in some of the videos. How do you go from a fundamental lack of understanding to but somehow correcting it "off camera" to something that looks good? How is it possible??????

Cynical part of me says someone else is doing the stuff that looks good and then he is representing it as his own. Agree? Disagree?

**Blue62** · 09-01-21, 08:06 PM

Originally posted by Chris_Hamilton View Post

Excellent points David.👍 "30 years of wheeling" and he's a "Jazz Wheeler" were really interesting.

Another question I have is how much of the finished stuff that we see of his on videos and on his site was actually done by him? Just from watching this video and the videos Peter linked in another thread, I don't see how he goes from the crap he made in this video to the finished stuff we see on his site and in some of the videos. How do you go from a fundamental lack of understanding to but somehow correcting it "off camera" to something that looks good? How is it possible??????

Cynical part of me says someone else is doing the stuff that looks good and then he is representing it as his own. Agree? Disagree?

Chris,
Hard to tell if someone is stepping in behind the scenes. I suspect he is doing most of the correcting and finishing of the work that he himself starts.
But damn it must take him hours to do.
Crazy as it sounds I do think he has a basic understanding of shape. The shrinking and stretching to get shape anyway.
It just seems to me that he disregards that understanding and tries to get shape by shortcuts and gimmicks. Once he realizes he is losing control of the panel he tries this shortcut or that gimmick causing him to chase shape around the panel and making things worse.

**Blue62** · 09-01-21, 08:26 PM

After Watching this video and making a few comments I have been thinking about the whole thing more.
Funny how it seems some of my best thoughts are after the fact.
My latest thought is:
If our friend really wants to "teach The Basics of Wheeling".
Then why not a video that demonstrates and fully explains the Shape in and shape out exercise?
Basic and fundamental to each and every panel done on the wheel.
He could explain and demonstrate everything from proper body posture to hand position, to tracking, to pressure.
The whys and wherefore's of shaping and wheeling.
That would be a video (done properly)

that I would like to see.
I think that would be a video that many of us would benefit from

Basic and fundamental, and I have never been able to find a detailed video of that exercise

Our friends video's seem to teach one thing only!!
What not to do!!!

**Moving molecules .** · 09-01-21, 09:06 PM

For a start he,s a fruit loop.

2nd he should be teaching beginners to make a balanced Panel Shrink & stretch.

3rd Random Wheeling.!!!!!!!!!!!!! No

4th total lack of respect to the History of Wheeling which may of started in France when suits of armour for the Top ranks progressed to polished works of art.

5th just like mobile paint repair .... a Con Artist.

**Moving molecules .** · 09-01-21, 09:17 PM

Originally posted by Blue62 View Post

My thoughts as a novice with no training. All I have to learn from are videos this forum and my mistakes

The video is titled "English Wheel Basics" The first thing I see missing is a paper pattern. He says he is just showing the basics of wheeling so no paper pattern needed.
But to me knowing where to put the shape is a basic fundamental of wheeling. The second thing I see missing is no demonstration of hand position or body position when wheeling. Right away it looks to me like his hand position on the panel is causing him to wheel a twist into the panel.
When he first starts he shows how he gets the panel into the wheel. If I have to enter at a 45 degree angle then to me that is way to much pressure to start with.
From there on he keeps increasing and increasing the pressure
He mentions "home marks" when he tests the fit on the buck then at 45.27 minutes - 45.44 minutes he says his "home marks" have moved. That tells me he is just chasing the shape all over the panel. So his method is haphazard.
I think if he was going to try that shape just by wheeling that he could have turned the panel 90 degrees and cross wheeled some.
In my mind he would have gotten some of the shape faster.

To me that panel should have started with a paper pattern to show what needed to be done to get the proper shape.
Where it needed to be stretched and any shrinks to get the shape with much less work. Then finished out on the wheel.

BUT this video was supposed to be about "Wheeling Basic's.
All I saw was haphazard fighting of a panel. Any shape he got was from forcing the panel to the buck.
Most of the shape was lost as soon as he removed the claps.
After what he says is 30 years of wheeling experience he wheels like I did when I started with no experience.
I still chase shape around a panel like he does but I am slowly learning that I have to be very methodical.
I have to use a paper pattern. I have to have a logical step by step process thought out before I begin.
I have to have control of the panel ever second.
I have to really watch where and how I wheel. I have to hold the panel a certain way.
He shows none of those "Basics".

Peter,
I am really happy that you have chosen to approach this latest video in this way.
Getting forum members like myself to express their views on how to make a panel or the rights and wrongs on wheeling.
Then after some discussion by members having you point out the right and wrong of it all, is going to be like having a teacher in a classroom.
I think its great.

David..... you are so so right..... Gold ⭐️.

He,s a Con artist.... Full Stop.

**Peter Tommasini** · 10-01-21, 12:59 AM

All of you guys so far have made VERY GOOD AND IMPORTANT POINTS in another words you ''hit the nail on the head ''!

I will say this,...

It can be boring watching this video ..... YES , BUT! DO YOU SEE ? ...You are making proper comments, and you can recognize the do and the don't WHICH MEANS YOU ARE LEARNING!!! ...... And that is the idea of this exercise

Look at it this way ...you are going to school,.. the teacher is given you some home work to do , when the home work is done , you are told if you are right or wrong and you are shown how and why

Just to wet your appetite

from my good friend Geoff Moss..... enjoy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6GTMAMUee4&t=311s N1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbnyUbPq6fI&t=464s N2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Xl7TrjiwIc&t=298s N3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MkoKqiYx8s&t=62s N4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDkVobW1uQY&t=36s N5

this last one is a good one for you guys

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGh84RiFuSA

As you can see on this return the panel is kept the way that it should be, tracking and pressure + full radius anvils and consistency is extremely important .

The panel is not worked in a horse shoe shape then ''rearranged

. Please LISTEN CAREFULLY on what Geoff said on these video's. If you find this boring and fast forward the video's

all I can then say is ....YOUR HART AND PASSION IS NOT FOR THIS TRADE

Peter T.
PS
As a EXAMPLE ...((((VERY IMPORTANT ! Please take note and listen ))))....... Just compare what Geoff Moss does and said on video PART 2 when changing the lower anvil from 0.54 to 5.04, to what Wray said at 3.35 to 4.12 on his video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHm3-lu3e2Q about his anvils technique . then FINALLY between 17.18 and 24.07 he change the lower anvil to a higher crown and increase the pressure??.

Boy that is a GOOD WAY to destroy a panel

So all in all................
Wray takes 55 minutes to shape a VERY SIMPLE bulbous shape panel ,AND IT'S NOT NEAR FINISHED ! He has a LOOOOOONG WAY TO GO . Where Geoff in 85 /90 minutes makes a complete RETURN OF EXTREME GOOD QUALITY !.........................??

To be continued................

**neilb** · 10-01-21, 03:41 AM

i do love to watch geoff moss, but to be honest i don't know bill at all he's probably a really nice guy but he comes across as an idiot who's not listening to what's being said

**Peter Tommasini** · 10-01-21, 04:18 AM

CONTINUATION

You do not have to watch this if you do not want to.... BUT I suggest you do ! We are looking at.... WRONG PRESSURE, WHEELING IN THE WRONG SPOT, stretching the out side edge RATHER THAN WHEELING IT in such way to tight the edge instead ( which by the way is MILES too long) , and the FINAL FIT after nearly 1 hour of f****ng around, all this is between 38.48 to the end . AT EXACTLY 40.01 TO 40.08 you will see an ELBOW on the middle of the panel ,..... can anyone tell me what is the reason for that ?......
Peter T.

Then of coarse we have the reply's, here are 2 of many of them, which are......... same shit different bucket

.

here the replys...... Wray, anyone ever tell you you're really really good at this? 😁 If one shouldn't be wheeling out on the edge because it will release the tension built up in the middle of the panel, the edge acting as a border or frame, then what happens when you have to trim the panel to the final shape?
.................................................. ..
This stuff is gold Wray! Thanks for bringing your master level skill to YT and sharing them.

/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Well these guys knows a lot

Now we have a second video and again you do not have to watch it ..but I suggest you do, simply because you need to see that the method he is using is VERY SLOW and no much is happening due to the fact that he is NOT doing it right ! he is simply playing with him self for a start just watch this early segment between 4.43 to 13.56 + very interesting to see that between 16.46 to 17.15 he has a reverse curve happening on the inner edge of the panel ? what a F**k ?

then at 18.40 [ Quote ]...it's let's give it a little more ?

at 18.56 to 29.27 we are back on the wheel and I am afraid the panel is not fitting that well

Next we are back on the wheel from 36.14 till the end of the video ....AND GUESS WHAT ? The panel is not much better then when he started it ! .

So ..what is all this about you might ask ? well the panel here in question SHOULD NOT TAKE ANY MORE THAN 45 / 60 minutes to make including CUT and READY TO WELD !

PS I DO NOT AGREE WHEN HE TALKS about the filling primes in order to fill the flaws surface of the panels, Well .. that is WRONG ! .....
If the panel is done the right way and the necessary time was spent on it,... the whole panel ( or complete body) should only need a few coats of normal primer in order for the paint to stick on it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PV4CEPlGWPQ

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let's see how much all of you guys have learned so far ?

let's see how much all of you guys have learned so far ?

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