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  • neilb
    commented on 's reply
    i'm not disputing that at all, it was just used to show the affects of what happens when someone attracts followers whether it be for the right reasons or not

  • Chris_Hamilton
    replied
    Anyone else feel sorry for that poor little Lotus?


    Oh and Neil, Jesus was controversial for all the right reasons. Strip away all the "religion" that gets wrapped around Christ. (Thank you Catholic Church) What he taught was universal and true.
    Last edited by Chris_Hamilton; 10-27-2019, 05:04 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Chazza
    replied
    Thanks Cliffy!

    I always find it fascinating to find out out what other cultures do, in comparison to mine.

    Over here, an an apprentice when they finish their training, will get formal papers from a National Authority proclaiming them a tradesperson in a specified trade. The beauty of it, is that the training skills and competencies are easily available to the employer, hence they have a good idea of whether a new employee is bullshitting or not and what to train their apprentice in.

    Most trades have to do off-the-job training at a school; this was originally designed to assist employers who may not have owned certain machinery etc. to train their apprentices on. Unfortunately due to Govt under-funding, the schools lack modern resources and generally teach irrelevant rubbish from 20 years ago, or longer. I haven't met an apprentice yet who said that their trade-school was worth going to!

    Worse than that, trade-training in trades such as metal casting and moulding and engine re-conditioning have disappeared in the schools in some States, so skills are being lost rapidly. This country will become an annexe of China soon!

    Cheers Charlie

    Leave a comment:


  • cliffrod
    replied
    Originally posted by Chazza View Post
    No idea what the trade-training laws in the USA are, but I see that he has the gall to offer apprenticeship training!

    In Australia a metal-trade apprentice can expect to work for 48 weeks a year, and be apprenticed for 3 years. So in one year, she should be at work for 240 days; if we assume an 8 hr working day that equals1920 hours; therefore an apprentice can expect training from a tradesman for 5 760 hours in 3 years.

    The listed program offers 600 hours! I can't be bothered working out what the Master Programme offers in hours, coz I know that that it won't be worth it in every sense.
    Apprenticeship is generally a much less definitive word here in the USA. Basically, unless you're a paid member in a union or working in a profession governed by a legal licensing body, apprenticeship is whatever you say it is.

    Some licensed professions have periods considered apprentice periods that simply have a time or Hour parameter to advance. Others may also include testing to advance to the next pay grade, like a Master Plumber or Master Electrician. Others are just a description of a more focused employer-employee work relationship.

    when I got my auctioneer's license in 1987, I had to legally serve an apprenticeship of two years under a fully licensed auctioneer before I could originate work on my own. In theory, you'll learn what to do but there were no additional testing or proof required that you were any more competent than before. There's a similar process to getting a real estate brokers license. Once you get your real estate license, you have to have a fully licensed broker carry you under their license for two years before you become a broker who can list and sell property on your own,

    when i I began my culinary apprenticeship in 1991, the private city club that hired me had specifically advertised for a culinary apprentice. I later came to understand that they were simply looking for a white guy but sure couldn't post an ad saying that specific thing. Except for the executive Chef and executive Pastry Chef, I was the only white regular employee in the kitchen full of black employees. They were trying to ward off possible complaints by hiring me.... No matter, I excelled and took full advantage of learning, basically created my own apprenticeship parameters instead of just being another lazy ass, drunk bum theif employee. We had lots of them. After approx two years, my chef gave me my own thermometer and said "congratulations- now you're a chef."

    When I began cutting stone in 2000, I had to serve a full two years of full time Union employment (basically 4000 hrs) as an apprentice. I didn't have to pass any credential test to progress to journeyman. at the end of my apprenticeship period, I was entitled to full rate compensation - the full base Union pay scale, also known as "bill" plus benefits as a fully fledged member of the Union. After that, moving to a higher pay rate (like bill and 5 meaning full Union bill plus $5.00/HR) was based upon the demonstrated skil and expertise. My grandfather always said that a real professional stonecutter or finisher never worked for bill. As a kid, I didn't understand and always wondered who Bill was and what was wrong with him...

    During my stone apprenticeship, I think I began at $14.50/HR plus benefits and bill was about $16.50/HR plus benefits +. After one year, I got a raise to $15.50 and got $16.50 after two years. My cousin did apprentice me but it was not a formal, documented process lie some guilds in other parts of the world may still require. There is no formal "Master" credential in the Granite Cutters Union, especially as a Sculptor. It is an honorary recognition granted by peers and never one we claim for ourself or use to self represent. There are other stone trades, like limestone carvers, who do apparently allow people to call themselves a 'Master Carver". But they can't do what I/we do, so we're not buying it....

    I have people I have apprenticed in culinary and continue to apprentice in both culinary (occasional) and stone. Nothing formal, just trying to teach them the right ways, not the latest fad or workaround.

    Leave a comment:


  • Peter Tommasini
    replied
    Originally posted by Chris_Hamilton View Post
    Ok, so perhaps I shouldn't have done this but after watching it and reading this thread I figured I had too. Posted a reply on the youtube video and recieved a reply back. Tried to not be a complete ass but perhaps I was. Here are the comments and his responses on the youtube page:



    VonDutch5151 2 hours ago

    @Wray Schelin's Pro Shaper Sheet Metal LLC If they worked I'd agree but they don't. Watching your video you put too much shape in the scoop because the FSP told you too. If you were using regular profiles or a buck you would not have done that. There is a reason why the Traditional Method is the Traditional Method, because it works.



    Wray Schelin's Pro Shaper Sheet Metal LLC


    2 hours ago


    @VonDutch5151 I will print out your comments and read them aloud to my students, I always state to my students at every class I teach that a traditional trained English wheel master will say this guy in is a fool-meaning me. I say it at every class now I have actual comments. It's a big cosmos people do things sometimes the same and sometime they differ. Some of the power hammer guys think that traditional English wheeling methods are slow and inefficient. I state at every class traditional pattern English wheeling yields the best results, when done to a very high standard.



    VonDutch5151 2 hours ago

    FSP's do not work. Real craftsman who make panels for a living do not use Flexible Shape Patterns. All the positive comments on here, I can guarantee none of you have ever done it for a living or actually constructed parts using the FSP's. If you had or tried you will know what I am saying. Trust me when saying the method he uses is wrong, the execution is wrong, the placement of the welds is wrong. And to charge others to learn this crap method is wrong. Idea of panel making is not to have 200 hours of panel beating AFTER you finish the panel trying to straighten it because of the erroneous way it was made. Sorry Mr Schelin you may be a nice guy but to present yourself as a Guru when you obviously have very little practical panel making experience (doing it for a living) is wrong. Observe someone like Geoff Moss who is trained in the Traditional method. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6GTMAMUee4 There is a huge difference between someone trained in the Traditional Method of Coachbuilding and someone who is self taught.(Mr. Schelin) Notice the difference in weld placement in theory and execution. You DON"T need massive pressure when using a wheel. Anyways I could go on but I know this is falling on deaf ears.



    Wray Schelin's Pro Shaper Sheet Metal LLC


    2 hours ago


    Traditional methods work, no one is arguing that. Non traditional methods work as well and sometimes better. The proof is always in the pudding. Watch to the end. 😁😁😁




    Peter, anything you want me to say in response seeing that he does read the comments? I'll be your proxy
    Chris I appreciate your efforts but I think it's to late for our friend do admit that he is simply wrong on his theory, simply because if he was to do so he would then lose any credibility and go broke ( can you imagine what his past students would say if he was to do away with the theory that he adapted so far and change to the new traditional way ? The would hang him ....................... and in any case I think he does not know how to do it the traditional way.
    In any case thank you for your comments on the youtube video's of his
    Peter T.

    Leave a comment:


  • neilb
    replied
    Originally posted by Chazza View Post
    The listed program offers 600 hours! I can't be bothered working out what the Master Programme offers in hours, coz I know that that it won't be worth it in every sense.
    you do get to take your car in though, and then you get to have other students work on it with you how good is that... and you have an expert on hand to sort any issues that may arise. i was always told an expert is, an 'ex' is a has been, and a 'spert' is a drip. thank you to my lecturer at college for that humor

    Leave a comment:


  • Chazza
    replied
    No idea what the trade-training laws in the USA are, but I see that he has the gall to offer apprenticeship training!

    In Australia a metal-trade apprentice can expect to work for 48 weeks a year, and be apprenticed for 3 years. So in one year, she should be at work for 240 days; if we assume an 8 hr working day that equals1920 hours; therefore an apprentice can expect training from a tradesman for 5 760 hours in 3 years.

    The listed program offers 600 hours! I can't be bothered working out what the Master Programme offers in hours, coz I know that that it won't be worth it in every sense.

    Leave a comment:


  • neilb
    replied
    Originally posted by cliffrod View Post
    Like I said-

    "Don't give them any recognition or acknowledgement. They'll only gain in following because they'll claim to be able to teach a novice more faster & easier than the grumpy old men. all it takes is a little more money to save a lot of time. That's the perfection of their pitch. they need criticism to boost their standings. If the best costs the most, why would a true expert charge less for better results? Raise your prices to the same crazy level while still keeping the truthful slow & difficult process and that doesn't compete well either. It's a downward spiral that's a dangerous distraction to preserving and perpetuating the proper old ways."

    Don't bite their hook. The more views, the better for them. The more comments, the better for them. They need the controversy to be relevant as a innovative resource. That's one of the basic tenets of being a such a leader. The great fallacy is that you don't have to be right to lead certain people, just controversial. You won't convince their audience. Their audience has to convince themselves when things don't work in the real world.
    yes, just look at jesus!

    don't mean to offend any religious people at all, i apologize if i have, but he was controversial at the time and now look...

    Leave a comment:


  • Chris_Hamilton
    replied
    Well put Cliff. I shall zip it from here on.

    Leave a comment:


  • cliffrod
    replied
    Like I said-

    "Don't give them any recognition or acknowledgement. They'll only gain in following because they'll claim to be able to teach a novice more faster & easier than the grumpy old men. all it takes is a little more money to save a lot of time. That's the perfection of their pitch. they need criticism to boost their standings. If the best costs the most, why would a true expert charge less for better results? Raise your prices to the same crazy level while still keeping the truthful slow & difficult process and that doesn't compete well either. It's a downward spiral that's a dangerous distraction to preserving and perpetuating the proper old ways."

    Don't bite their hook. The more views, the better for them. The more comments, the better for them. They need the controversy to be relevant as a innovative resource. That's one of the basic tenets of being a such a leader. The great fallacy is that you don't have to be right to lead certain people, just controversial. You won't convince their audience. Their audience has to convince themselves when things don't work in the real world.

    Leave a comment:


  • Chris_Hamilton
    replied
    Ok, so perhaps I shouldn't have done this but after watching it and reading this thread I figured I had too. Posted a reply on the youtube video and recieved a reply back. Tried to not be a complete ass but perhaps I was. Here are the comments and his responses on the youtube page:



    VonDutch5151 2 hours ago

    @Wray Schelin's Pro Shaper Sheet Metal LLC If they worked I'd agree but they don't. Watching your video you put too much shape in the scoop because the FSP told you too. If you were using regular profiles or a buck you would not have done that. There is a reason why the Traditional Method is the Traditional Method, because it works.



    Wray Schelin's Pro Shaper Sheet Metal LLC


    2 hours ago


    @VonDutch5151 I will print out your comments and read them aloud to my students, I always state to my students at every class I teach that a traditional trained English wheel master will say this guy in is a fool-meaning me. I say it at every class now I have actual comments. It's a big cosmos people do things sometimes the same and sometime they differ. Some of the power hammer guys think that traditional English wheeling methods are slow and inefficient. I state at every class traditional pattern English wheeling yields the best results, when done to a very high standard.



    VonDutch5151 2 hours ago

    FSP's do not work. Real craftsman who make panels for a living do not use Flexible Shape Patterns. All the positive comments on here, I can guarantee none of you have ever done it for a living or actually constructed parts using the FSP's. If you had or tried you will know what I am saying. Trust me when saying the method he uses is wrong, the execution is wrong, the placement of the welds is wrong. And to charge others to learn this crap method is wrong. Idea of panel making is not to have 200 hours of panel beating AFTER you finish the panel trying to straighten it because of the erroneous way it was made. Sorry Mr Schelin you may be a nice guy but to present yourself as a Guru when you obviously have very little practical panel making experience (doing it for a living) is wrong. Observe someone like Geoff Moss who is trained in the Traditional method. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6GTMAMUee4 There is a huge difference between someone trained in the Traditional Method of Coachbuilding and someone who is self taught.(Mr. Schelin) Notice the difference in weld placement in theory and execution. You DON"T need massive pressure when using a wheel. Anyways I could go on but I know this is falling on deaf ears.



    Wray Schelin's Pro Shaper Sheet Metal LLC


    2 hours ago


    Traditional methods work, no one is arguing that. Non traditional methods work as well and sometimes better. The proof is always in the pudding. Watch to the end. 😁😁😁




    Peter, anything you want me to say in response seeing that he does read the comments? I'll be your proxy
    Last edited by Chris_Hamilton; 10-26-2019, 07:13 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • joeswamp
    replied
    Part of the problem too is that the USA has no tradition of wheeling machines, you can't do something like an Aston Martin or Rolls Royce apprenticeship here. Unlike in the UK, all US sheet metal work during WWII was done with power hammers. The most famous post-war custom metal shaping house (Cal Metal Shaping, made the Cobra Daytona Coupes) was all power hammers. So we never got that critical mass of wheeling machine expertise here.

    So people in the US eventually see the wheeling machine and recognize how useful it is, but they have no formal training on how to use it. So you end up with self-taught people going off in all sorts of crazy directions and techniques -- this was the only way they had to learn the craft.

    Leave a comment:


  • cliffrod
    replied
    I totally understand, Peter. 99.9% of my competition in stone sculpture work is absolute garbage shit work from china. People can't get enough of it, even when it's marked up to similar price as mine. It's become so pervasive that now people regularly contact me wanting me to match ugly china work because that's all they know. The fakers teaching & selling crap are all over the place, not just in Metalshaping. You should see the endless workshops put on by "the top experts" in my business....

    People are generally lazy & want it quick and easy, especially if they get a gold star no matter what. If the seller spins it properly, people pay stupid money for garbage instruction & gimmick gadgets. The more they spend, the more claimed value their "expertise" has. After they've been to several events or workshops, they've got "years" of experience, credentials and know all the other posers on a first name basis. Most don't want slow and difficult. The sheep sure don't want anyone who actually knows or does it right telling them they missed the boat and wasted all their time & money on complete crap.

    the bigger problem imho is that these new age fakers simply create more new age fakers that eventually drown out the true experts & expertise until it's lost. People take a $$$class or few, then start selling their own classes because it's easier to sell romance than actual tangible results. Just like "chefs" who graduate from culinary school and then promptly become full time teachers because making good money as a real chef is hard work. None of them earn a living doing the work. If they haven't done it for a real living, I have little interest in what they're claiming selling- no matter what it is.

    Don't give them any recognition or acknowledgement. They'll only gain in following because they'll claim to be able to teach a novice more faster & easier than the grumpy old men. all it takes is a little more money to save a lot of time. That's the perfection of their pitch. they need criticism to boost their standings. If the best costs the most, why would a true expert charge less for better results? Raise your prices to the same crazy level while still keeping the truthful slow & difficult process and that doesn't compete well either. It's a downward spiral that's a dangerous distraction to preserving and petetuating the proper old ways.

    Im going to the shop now and try to do some work on my Guzzi the right way. I'll probably screw it up, come back here with questions and then do it again & again until I get it right. No matter, I guarantee that nothing I do will be instructed by the fake experts.

    Leave a comment:


  • Peter Tommasini
    replied
    Even if the price was half of that amount or even a quarter it still is $ 7500 US or close to $ 4000 US, it does not change anything, the guy does not know and is not capable to teach properly. just take a look at his last video N 9 A stop and rewind at about 19 to 21 (just after he talks about his wheeling machine cost ) and check out how the scoop fits to the rest of the bonnet , the height at the very back, the plain of the two scoop sides welded together, the size of the return line, (sharp instead of round) also look at the lights line at the back ...and ... the front and rear of the whole scoop are hard against the skin coursing the middle to be at least 10 mm away from the rest of the skin .And do you know why....he kept hitting the panel because the FSP told him so, and he simply got it too full and the has had the same problem . in all of the panels he made for the bonnet . in another words............ do not pay any money to learn that crap!
    Last edited by Peter Tommasini; 10-26-2019, 02:36 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • cliffrod
    replied
    Originally posted by neilb View Post



    it seems you should be charging way more!... in fact i should start to do classes and charge what you charge now and you could do the master classes and charge 15k aud lol.

    that is simply staggering what is being charged
    The staggering part would be if the price is paid. I don't believe crazy pricing without actual clients who pay the price.

    It's easy to put a big number out there as the ideal/dream end of the ruler option. It makes the lower priced options seem much more reasonable. But some people will pay an exorbitant price. If you're selling, it's always great when they do. I was taught to be careful what you bid because you might get it....

    Leave a comment:

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