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  • #31
    Originally posted by cliffrod View Post
    Like I said-

    "Don't give them any recognition or acknowledgement. They'll only gain in following because they'll claim to be able to teach a novice more faster & easier than the grumpy old men. all it takes is a little more money to save a lot of time. That's the perfection of their pitch. they need criticism to boost their standings. If the best costs the most, why would a true expert charge less for better results? Raise your prices to the same crazy level while still keeping the truthful slow & difficult process and that doesn't compete well either. It's a downward spiral that's a dangerous distraction to preserving and perpetuating the proper old ways."

    Don't bite their hook. The more views, the better for them. The more comments, the better for them. They need the controversy to be relevant as a innovative resource. That's one of the basic tenets of being a such a leader. The great fallacy is that you don't have to be right to lead certain people, just controversial. You won't convince their audience. Their audience has to convince themselves when things don't work in the real world.
    yes, just look at jesus!

    don't mean to offend any religious people at all, i apologize if i have, but he was controversial at the time and now look...
    thanks neil

    Comment


    • #32
      No idea what the trade-training laws in the USA are, but I see that he has the gall to offer apprenticeship training!

      In Australia a metal-trade apprentice can expect to work for 48 weeks a year, and be apprenticed for 3 years. So in one year, she should be at work for 240 days; if we assume an 8 hr working day that equals1920 hours; therefore an apprentice can expect training from a tradesman for 5 760 hours in 3 years.

      The listed program offers 600 hours! I can't be bothered working out what the Master Programme offers in hours, coz I know that that it won't be worth it in every sense.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Chazza View Post
        The listed program offers 600 hours! I can't be bothered working out what the Master Programme offers in hours, coz I know that that it won't be worth it in every sense.
        you do get to take your car in though, and then you get to have other students work on it with you how good is that... and you have an expert on hand to sort any issues that may arise. i was always told an expert is, an 'ex' is a has been, and a 'spert' is a drip. thank you to my lecturer at college for that humor
        thanks neil

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Chris_Hamilton View Post
          Ok, so perhaps I shouldn't have done this but after watching it and reading this thread I figured I had too. Posted a reply on the youtube video and recieved a reply back. Tried to not be a complete ass but perhaps I was. Here are the comments and his responses on the youtube page:



          VonDutch5151 2 hours ago

          @Wray Schelin's Pro Shaper Sheet Metal LLC If they worked I'd agree but they don't. Watching your video you put too much shape in the scoop because the FSP told you too. If you were using regular profiles or a buck you would not have done that. There is a reason why the Traditional Method is the Traditional Method, because it works.



          Wray Schelin's Pro Shaper Sheet Metal LLC


          2 hours ago


          @VonDutch5151 I will print out your comments and read them aloud to my students, I always state to my students at every class I teach that a traditional trained English wheel master will say this guy in is a fool-meaning me. I say it at every class now I have actual comments. It's a big cosmos people do things sometimes the same and sometime they differ. Some of the power hammer guys think that traditional English wheeling methods are slow and inefficient. I state at every class traditional pattern English wheeling yields the best results, when done to a very high standard.



          VonDutch5151 2 hours ago

          FSP's do not work. Real craftsman who make panels for a living do not use Flexible Shape Patterns. All the positive comments on here, I can guarantee none of you have ever done it for a living or actually constructed parts using the FSP's. If you had or tried you will know what I am saying. Trust me when saying the method he uses is wrong, the execution is wrong, the placement of the welds is wrong. And to charge others to learn this crap method is wrong. Idea of panel making is not to have 200 hours of panel beating AFTER you finish the panel trying to straighten it because of the erroneous way it was made. Sorry Mr Schelin you may be a nice guy but to present yourself as a Guru when you obviously have very little practical panel making experience (doing it for a living) is wrong. Observe someone like Geoff Moss who is trained in the Traditional method. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6GTMAMUee4 There is a huge difference between someone trained in the Traditional Method of Coachbuilding and someone who is self taught.(Mr. Schelin) Notice the difference in weld placement in theory and execution. You DON"T need massive pressure when using a wheel. Anyways I could go on but I know this is falling on deaf ears.



          Wray Schelin's Pro Shaper Sheet Metal LLC


          2 hours ago


          Traditional methods work, no one is arguing that. Non traditional methods work as well and sometimes better. The proof is always in the pudding. Watch to the end. 😁😁😁




          Peter, anything you want me to say in response seeing that he does read the comments? I'll be your proxy
          Chris I appreciate your efforts but I think it's to late for our friend do admit that he is simply wrong on his theory, simply because if he was to do so he would then lose any credibility and go broke ( can you imagine what his past students would say if he was to do away with the theory that he adapted so far and change to the new traditional way ? The would hang him ....................... and in any case I think he does not know how to do it the traditional way.
          In any case thank you for your comments on the youtube video's of his
          Peter T.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Chazza View Post
            No idea what the trade-training laws in the USA are, but I see that he has the gall to offer apprenticeship training!

            In Australia a metal-trade apprentice can expect to work for 48 weeks a year, and be apprenticed for 3 years. So in one year, she should be at work for 240 days; if we assume an 8 hr working day that equals1920 hours; therefore an apprentice can expect training from a tradesman for 5 760 hours in 3 years.

            The listed program offers 600 hours! I can't be bothered working out what the Master Programme offers in hours, coz I know that that it won't be worth it in every sense.
            Apprenticeship is generally a much less definitive word here in the USA. Basically, unless you're a paid member in a union or working in a profession governed by a legal licensing body, apprenticeship is whatever you say it is.

            Some licensed professions have periods considered apprentice periods that simply have a time or Hour parameter to advance. Others may also include testing to advance to the next pay grade, like a Master Plumber or Master Electrician. Others are just a description of a more focused employer-employee work relationship.

            when I got my auctioneer's license in 1987, I had to legally serve an apprenticeship of two years under a fully licensed auctioneer before I could originate work on my own. In theory, you'll learn what to do but there were no additional testing or proof required that you were any more competent than before. There's a similar process to getting a real estate brokers license. Once you get your real estate license, you have to have a fully licensed broker carry you under their license for two years before you become a broker who can list and sell property on your own,

            when i I began my culinary apprenticeship in 1991, the private city club that hired me had specifically advertised for a culinary apprentice. I later came to understand that they were simply looking for a white guy but sure couldn't post an ad saying that specific thing. Except for the executive Chef and executive Pastry Chef, I was the only white regular employee in the kitchen full of black employees. They were trying to ward off possible complaints by hiring me.... No matter, I excelled and took full advantage of learning, basically created my own apprenticeship parameters instead of just being another lazy ass, drunk bum theif employee. We had lots of them. After approx two years, my chef gave me my own thermometer and said "congratulations- now you're a chef."

            When I began cutting stone in 2000, I had to serve a full two years of full time Union employment (basically 4000 hrs) as an apprentice. I didn't have to pass any credential test to progress to journeyman. at the end of my apprenticeship period, I was entitled to full rate compensation - the full base Union pay scale, also known as "bill" plus benefits as a fully fledged member of the Union. After that, moving to a higher pay rate (like bill and 5 meaning full Union bill plus $5.00/HR) was based upon the demonstrated skil and expertise. My grandfather always said that a real professional stonecutter or finisher never worked for bill. As a kid, I didn't understand and always wondered who Bill was and what was wrong with him...

            During my stone apprenticeship, I think I began at $14.50/HR plus benefits and bill was about $16.50/HR plus benefits +. After one year, I got a raise to $15.50 and got $16.50 after two years. My cousin did apprentice me but it was not a formal, documented process lie some guilds in other parts of the world may still require. There is no formal "Master" credential in the Granite Cutters Union, especially as a Sculptor. It is an honorary recognition granted by peers and never one we claim for ourself or use to self represent. There are other stone trades, like limestone carvers, who do apparently allow people to call themselves a 'Master Carver". But they can't do what I/we do, so we're not buying it....

            I have people I have apprenticed in culinary and continue to apprentice in both culinary (occasional) and stone. Nothing formal, just trying to teach them the right ways, not the latest fad or workaround.

            Comment


            • #36
              Thanks Cliffy!

              I always find it fascinating to find out out what other cultures do, in comparison to mine.

              Over here, an an apprentice when they finish their training, will get formal papers from a National Authority proclaiming them a tradesperson in a specified trade. The beauty of it, is that the training skills and competencies are easily available to the employer, hence they have a good idea of whether a new employee is bullshitting or not and what to train their apprentice in.

              Most trades have to do off-the-job training at a school; this was originally designed to assist employers who may not have owned certain machinery etc. to train their apprentices on. Unfortunately due to Govt under-funding, the schools lack modern resources and generally teach irrelevant rubbish from 20 years ago, or longer. I haven't met an apprentice yet who said that their trade-school was worth going to!

              Worse than that, trade-training in trades such as metal casting and moulding and engine re-conditioning have disappeared in the schools in some States, so skills are being lost rapidly. This country will become an annexe of China soon!

              Cheers Charlie

              Comment


              • #37
                Anyone else feel sorry for that poor little Lotus?


                Oh and Neil, Jesus was controversial for all the right reasons. Strip away all the "religion" that gets wrapped around Christ. (Thank you Catholic Church) What he taught was universal and true.
                Last edited by Chris_Hamilton; 10-27-2019, 05:04 AM.

                Comment


                • neilb
                  neilb commented
                  Editing a comment
                  i'm not disputing that at all, it was just used to show the affects of what happens when someone attracts followers whether it be for the right reasons or not

              • #38
                Originally posted by Peter Tommasini View Post

                Sorry ......... as a rule in my business I personally do not mention names but I am sure you will find out soon enough from someone else.
                Having said that if you find out what we are talking about, you might want to check the two links on my opening comment first , then all of the follow ups on those two links , then check the video N 9 A ..................then make your own mind, .... if you like you can comment on them all

                Peter T.
                Thanks.

                I grew up in the FSP camp as that's all I've been taught. However, I'm open to different methods. I tried a paper pattern at the meet I hosted last weekend and came up with a fail. This will not stop me though. I just have to learn every method. Also, I'm no expert, so there's that also.

                In defense of the FSP, my first panel was done using one. I took the pattern and a piece of sheet to a fellas place for some instruction and to use his wheel. I came back with a panel that fit the buck very well. The buck was at home attached to the car. I feel for a novice, it's a good thing.

                Here's my (my daughter helped a lot also) pieces from last weekend.............ha..........don't laugh too much. A FSP would have helped as I am used to that method, however, using one wouldn't have helped break me free. I will get it one day....

                Click image for larger version

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                (the tucks were too far in from the edge, leading me to flatten with the wheel, supposed to be flat, untouched on top)


                Click image for larger version

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                Pugsy

                Comment


                • #39
                  Originally posted by Chazza View Post
                  No idea what the trade-training laws in the USA are, but I see that he has the gall to offer apprenticeship training!

                  In Australia a metal-trade apprentice can expect to work for 48 weeks a year, and be apprenticed for 3 years. So in one year, she should be at work for 240 days; if we assume an 8 hr working day that equals1920 hours; therefore an apprentice can expect training from a tradesman for 5 760 hours in 3 years.

                  The listed program offers 600 hours! I can't be bothered working out what the Master Programme offers in hours, coz I know that that it won't be worth it in every sense.
                  You're includiing the apprentice's time on the bog and also drinking tea though Chazza.......
                  Last edited by kenc; 10-28-2019, 04:52 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #40
                    Originally posted by Chazza View Post
                    Thanks Cliffy!

                    I always find it fascinating to find out out what other cultures do, in comparison to mine.

                    Over here, an an apprentice when they finish their training, will get formal papers from a National Authority proclaiming them a tradesperson in a specified trade. The beauty of it, is that the training skills and competencies are easily available to the employer, hence they have a good idea of whether a new employee is bullshitting or not and what to train their apprentice in.

                    Most trades have to do off-the-job training at a school; this was originally designed to assist employers who may not have owned certain machinery etc. to train their apprentices on. Unfortunately due to Govt under-funding, the schools lack modern resources and generally teach irrelevant rubbish from 20 years ago, or longer. I haven't met an apprentice yet who said that their trade-school was worth going to!

                    Worse than that, trade-training in trades such as metal casting and moulding and engine re-conditioning have disappeared in the schools in some States, so skills are being lost rapidly. This country will become an annexe of China soon!

                    Cheers Charlie
                    There are still vocational programs here, both at high school and community college/technical schools. I really wanted to go to vocational (at a different dedicated campus about 10 miles away from our high school campus) to learn how to weld as a teenager. Because I was in a college-prep course of study, I was basically not allowed to go to vocational. If you're a "smart" kid, they didn't generally facilitate learning a trade skill.

                    so many deep skill trades are disappearing here in the states. Some of it is based upon the long training period, legal costs an employer must bear during that time of employing a low performing trainee and more. What I do in stone is an extreme example, but it is considered normal for a new hire to require 10 yrs of full time training before they become a break-even ($$) employee. Not fluent and profitable, just break-even. Since the work is largely under union contract , that means a nearly a decade of full compensation and expense. A big company might afford it as a strategic investment, but nearly none can or do. I'm no longer Union affiliated, but I can't afford to hire & train anyone in such a high risk (both $$ and health/safety) field. The legal issues are nuts and many people are too happy to sue an employer or company for any reason they can, makes it very risky to employ people in dangerous work because they simply don't want to be responsible for their own decisions, especially years later after the hurt & damage doesn't go away.

                    theres a bigger push to validate trade skills recently. There are so many college degrees that are irrelevant plus the debt they require that perspectives are changing. A lot of it is probably too far gone to save. Until weapons need to be made for the next world war, most people won't understand how significant the losses are.

                    Comment


                    • #41
                      He's not the Messiah, he's just a naughty boy!
                      Cheers, Richard

                      Comment


                      • #42
                        Originally posted by cliffrod View Post

                        There are still vocational programs here, both at high school and community college/technical schools. I really wanted to go to vocational (at a different dedicated campus about 10 miles away from our high school campus) to learn how to weld as a teenager. Because I was in a college-prep course of study, I was basically not allowed to go to vocational. If you're a "smart" kid, they didn't generally facilitate learning a trade skill.

                        so many deep skill trades are disappearing here in the states. Some of it is based upon the long training period, legal costs an employer must bear during that time of employing a low performing trainee and more. What I do in stone is an extreme example, but it is considered normal for a new hire to require 10 yrs of full time training before they become a break-even ($$) employee. Not fluent and profitable, just break-even. Since the work is largely under union contract , that means a nearly a decade of full compensation and expense. A big company might afford it as a strategic investment, but nearly none can or do. I'm no longer Union affiliated, but I can't afford to hire & train anyone in such a high risk (both $$ and health/safety) field. The legal issues are nuts and many people are too happy to sue an employer or company for any reason they can, makes it very risky to employ people in dangerous work because they simply don't want to be responsible for their own decisions, especially years later after the hurt & damage doesn't go away.

                        theres a bigger push to validate trade skills recently. There are so many college degrees that are irrelevant plus the debt they require that perspectives are changing. A lot of it is probably too far gone to save. Until weapons need to be made for the next world war, most people won't understand how significant the losses are.
                        My old man was a pipe weldor, and I was convinced that was what I wanted to do, also. I went to vocational school to the welding class. I really wanted to take machine shop AND welding, and just skip the English, American History and Economics bullshit they made me take, because I wanted to MAKE things. But as you all know, I couldnt do that.
                        I left high school and went to Spartanburg Tech and was welding, on my way to work for Duke Power.....At the time Duke had two nuke plants going, one at Cawtaba and one at Mcguire (sp?).
                        Just a few weeks before I was to graduate, they stopped building and started laying off. This did a couple of things. Number one, we were all practicing on that schedule 180 pipe they were running, and now there was no need for that skill, and number 2, it flooded the job market with experienced weldors. Who in their right mind was going to hire a green ass kid from school (Me), when they could get a man who had been doing the work for years. I finally gave up and joined the Navy.
                        I said all that to say this. When I started trying to do sheet metal work, I had to take everything I knew about welding and throw it out the window. From the start , all we learned was about full penetration and the backside of the weld ought to look like the front. This is still the case if you're working on a pressure vessel, but on a rust patch on a fender its just not so.
                        I took a little class from Patman , (Pat Brubaker) and he showed us how to weld sheet panel patch panels in so that they could be finished with a minimum of work. Both TIG and and gas welded.
                        Before he proved his point , I wouldnt have give a nickel for his welds. They just didnt fit with what I had been taught. But he took them to the stump, beat on them the way Peter had showed us, bent them back the other way, planished them, shaped them, and just generally turned them whatever was he could and they still didnt tear out. Definitely drove home the point that welding in patch panels is way different than what I knew.
                        What the hell has this got to do with the video...not much! Just some ramblings from an old beginner to the sheet metal world. Ya'll have a good day!

                        Comment


                        • #43
                          Just to add some fuel to the 'Judean Peoples' Front' vs 'Peoples' Front of Judea' argument and fan the flames lightly with my cap, if one is a disciple of the FSP, how does one make a shape if one doesn't have said shape to begin with?

                          For example, me trying to make a Group 5 BMW when all I have is a bunch of photos?

                          So far a wooden buck, faired with strips of 3/8 x 3/8 plastic and then paper patterns a la dressmaking/tailoring and Peter's teachings, seem to be delivering the desired outcome, even though the panel creating skills are sub par.

                          Click image for larger version

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                          Cheers, Richard

                          Comment


                          • neilb
                            neilb commented
                            Editing a comment
                            looking good Richard

                        • #44
                          i did mention this on AMS when the first video emerged of this jag bonnet, i was told by KP that he ran strips of tape from the adjoining panels to create the piece that was missing. doesn't help though if you have nothing to attach the tape to!...

                          as a side note, i hope it is a traditional Yorkshire flat cap you're fanning the flames with?... even though it is now a fashion accessory lol
                          thanks neil

                          Comment


                          • skintkarter
                            skintkarter commented
                            Editing a comment
                            Cheers Neil - yes of course, plus I have a pile of stale pork pies to lob when things go quiet again

                        • #45
                          Originally posted by neilb View Post
                          i did mention this on AMS when the first video emerged of this jag bonnet, i was told by KP that he ran strips of tape from the adjoining panels to create the piece that was missing. doesn't help though if you have nothing to attach the tape to!...
                          .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ................................

                          KP would not have a clue how to go about building or shaping anything just take a look at the roadster that he has built , that will give you a indication of his degree of metalshaping . Not only that ...... but he also made known that ''our friend'' has been is mentor from the very beginning + I found out that after only one week of working with our friend, he then started building wheeling machines and selling them to the public. And of coarse we won't mention his idea of the HOT DOG DIE to make reverse curves

                          Comment


                          • Bill Tromblay
                            Bill Tromblay commented
                            Editing a comment
                            Some one say Hot Dog? I was given one, great club in case you get attacked by a kangaroo. Maybe I'm using it wrong?? I would of thought you Aussies would like curved sticks
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