New video by our friend

[dennis]

Just tried to watch the N9A video and found it painfull [Bashing the metal really irritating ], Nothing flowed from one section to the next and there was no control of the panel.Then watched all four of Geof Mosses videos which was a pleasure because he had control of the panel all the way through, Each step flowed from one step to the next as he caressed the panel into shape and he explained what he is doing in each step,then put it into practice. You can really see who the tradesman is.
Regards Dennis

[Chris_Hamilton]

Not my business but ... just for curiosity sake do you know how much is the various classes charges?
Peter T.

https://www.proshaper.com/metal-shap...class-options/

The "Master" program @$15000 USD looks appealing doesn't it?

[kenc]

For anyone who doubts Peter's ability - I don't think there are any regular visitors here who do but FWIW as they say - a few years back I took a small practice buck to a metal meet and had a very famous American metalshaper have a go. He gave up with it maybe half done stating it was a 10/10 for difficulty. When I showed it to Peter Tommasini at my house some time after that he looked at it, went over to my wheel and turned out a perfect 100% fit panel in maybe an hour or so. and I mean a perfect fit to the buck and the finish? It was like "chrome plate". Peter said it didn't seem like a very difficult panel at all. LOL.

[joeswamp]

In order to train your eyes on these things just look and study the link from Geoff Moss I posted and see where the welds should be .The welds are where the sand paper marks are on the shining surfaces

It is interesting to compare your Ferrari nose with a Geoff Moss Jaguar bonnet, because it seems both you guys agree on where to put the welds. You both make the front nose in one piece, and then you both make a weld inboard of the "hump" formed by the wheel. Is this widely agreed upon by the experts?

Geoff Moss welds the hood scoop inboard/above the valley, and so he avoids making the flange on the hood scoop. He does need to make an upward lip on the flat piece though, I wonder if this is better because the weld is now on the higher crown scoop and maybe it's easier to deal with distortion?



Wray of course puts his welds in very different places. About the only similarity is the front nose piece -- his has similar boundaries to Geoff's except that it's made in two pieces.

[Peter Tommasini]

https://www.proshaper.com/metal-shap...class-options/

The "Master" program @$15000 USD looks appealing doesn't it?

What !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I think I just feel over my chair
At today exchange rate $15000 US is equal to $21900 AU gee... I am not charging enough my 120 hours class (3 weeks ) is $ 3600 AU that is for people in Melbourne, a bit more for the others States in Australia and over seas, and is (to do with accommodations )
Peter T.

[Peter Tommasini]

It is interesting to compare your Ferrari nose with a Geoff Moss Jaguar bonnet, because it seems both you guys agree on where to put the welds. You both make the front nose in one piece, and then you both make a weld inboard of the "hump" formed by the wheel. Is this widely agreed upon by the experts?

Geoff Moss welds the hood scoop inboard/above the valley, and so he avoids making the flange on the hood scoop. He does need to make an upward lip on the flat piece though, I wonder if this is better because the weld is now on the higher crown scoop and maybe it's easier to deal with distortion?

that is exactly why the welds are there (avoid distortions and easier to do ) any experts will do it that way every time , not only that compare the finish of the bonnets to the one our friend did !!! Geoff is a professional and does know is job. Our friend IS NOT AN EXPERT AND CERTNALLY DOES NOT KNOW MUCH PERIOD !!!!!! I tell you what...for $15000 US for a (''master'' program ) I would not like to be thought that theory, or that way or anything else our friend is prepared to offers it's simply the wrong way ....... am I to critical you think ?................. Just watch the links I posted

[Peter Tommasini]

For anyone who doubts Peter's ability - I don't think there are any regular visitors here who do but FWIW as they say - a few years back I took a small practice buck to a metal meet and had a very famous American metalshaper have a go. He gave up with it maybe half done stating it was a 10/10 for difficulty. When I showed it to Peter Tommasini at my house some time after that he looked at it, went over to my wheel and turned out a perfect 100% fit panel in maybe an hour or so. and I mean a perfect fit to the buck and the finish? It was like "chrome plate". Peter said it didn't seem like a very difficult panel at all. LOL.

Ken I remember that panel well it was not that difficult at all that theory and practice was shown to all the students at schools on the first Year of their training by master teachers in England and Australia my bet would be if that panel was given to our friend in question here,..... and he was to use the FSP + using all of that pressure on the wheel he would just make a BIG mess of it !!.............. (put money on it !!)

Again anybody thinking that I am exaggerating when referring to our friend work and theory, please watch the pressure that Geoff and I use when wheeling a panel

[neilb]

https://www.proshaper.com/metal-shap...class-options/

The "Master" program @$15000 USD looks appealing doesn't it?

What !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I think I just feel over my chair
At today exchange rate $15000 US is equal to $21900 AU gee... I am not charging enough my 120 hours class (3 weeks ) is $ 3600 AU that is for people in Melbourne, a bit more for the others States in Australia and over seas, and is (to do with accommodations )
Peter T.

it seems you should be charging way more!... in fact i should start to do classes and charge what you charge now and you could do the master classes and charge 15k aud lol.

that is simply staggering what is being charged

[cliffrod]

it seems you should be charging way more!... in fact i should start to do classes and charge what you charge now and you could do the master classes and charge 15k aud lol.

that is simply staggering what is being charged

The staggering part would be if the price is paid. I don't believe crazy pricing without actual clients who pay the price.

It's easy to put a big number out there as the ideal/dream end of the ruler option. It makes the lower priced options seem much more reasonable. But some people will pay an exorbitant price. If you're selling, it's always great when they do. I was taught to be careful what you bid because you might get it....

[Peter Tommasini]

Even if the price was half of that amount or even a quarter it still is $ 7500 US or close to $ 4000 US, it does not change anything, the guy does not know and is not capable to teach properly. just take a look at his last video N 9 A stop and rewind at about 19 to 21 (just after he talks about his wheeling machine cost ) and check out how the scoop fits to the rest of the bonnet , the height at the very back, the plain of the two scoop sides welded together, the size of the return line, (sharp instead of round) also look at the lights line at the back ...and ... the front and rear of the whole scoop are hard against the skin coursing the middle to be at least 10 mm away from the rest of the skin .And do you know why....he kept hitting the panel because the FSP told him so, and he simply got it too full and the has had the same problem . in all of the panels he made for the bonnet . in another words............ do not pay any money to learn that crap!

[cliffrod]

I totally understand, Peter. 99.9% of my competition in stone sculpture work is absolute garbage shit work from china. People can't get enough of it, even when it's marked up to similar price as mine. It's become so pervasive that now people regularly contact me wanting me to match ugly china work because that's all they know. The fakers teaching & selling crap are all over the place, not just in Metalshaping. You should see the endless workshops put on by "the top experts" in my business....

People are generally lazy & want it quick and easy, especially if they get a gold star no matter what. If the seller spins it properly, people pay stupid money for garbage instruction & gimmick gadgets. The more they spend, the more claimed value their "expertise" has. After they've been to several events or workshops, they've got "years" of experience, credentials and know all the other posers on a first name basis. Most don't want slow and difficult. The sheep sure don't want anyone who actually knows or does it right telling them they missed the boat and wasted all their time & money on complete crap.

the bigger problem imho is that these new age fakers simply create more new age fakers that eventually drown out the true experts & expertise until it's lost. People take a $$$class or few, then start selling their own classes because it's easier to sell romance than actual tangible results. Just like "chefs" who graduate from culinary school and then promptly become full time teachers because making good money as a real chef is hard work. None of them earn a living doing the work. If they haven't done it for a real living, I have little interest in what they're claiming selling- no matter what it is.

Don't give them any recognition or acknowledgement. They'll only gain in following because they'll claim to be able to teach a novice more faster & easier than the grumpy old men. all it takes is a little more money to save a lot of time. That's the perfection of their pitch. they need criticism to boost their standings. If the best costs the most, why would a true expert charge less for better results? Raise your prices to the same crazy level while still keeping the truthful slow & difficult process and that doesn't compete well either. It's a downward spiral that's a dangerous distraction to preserving and petetuating the proper old ways.

Im going to the shop now and try to do some work on my Guzzi the right way. I'll probably screw it up, come back here with questions and then do it again & again until I get it right. No matter, I guarantee that nothing I do will be instructed by the fake experts.

[joeswamp]

Part of the problem too is that the USA has no tradition of wheeling machines, you can't do something like an Aston Martin or Rolls Royce apprenticeship here. Unlike in the UK, all US sheet metal work during WWII was done with power hammers. The most famous post-war custom metal shaping house (Cal Metal Shaping, made the Cobra Daytona Coupes) was all power hammers. So we never got that critical mass of wheeling machine expertise here.

So people in the US eventually see the wheeling machine and recognize how useful it is, but they have no formal training on how to use it. So you end up with self-taught people going off in all sorts of crazy directions and techniques -- this was the only way they had to learn the craft.

[Chris_Hamilton]

Ok, so perhaps I shouldn't have done this but after watching it and reading this thread I figured I had too. Posted a reply on the youtube video and recieved a reply back. Tried to not be a complete ass but perhaps I was. Here are the comments and his responses on the youtube page:



VonDutch5151 2 hours ago

@Wray Schelin's Pro Shaper Sheet Metal LLC If they worked I'd agree but they don't. Watching your video you put too much shape in the scoop because the FSP told you too. If you were using regular profiles or a buck you would not have done that. There is a reason why the Traditional Method is the Traditional Method, because it works.



Wray Schelin's Pro Shaper Sheet Metal LLC


2 hours ago


@VonDutch5151 I will print out your comments and read them aloud to my students, I always state to my students at every class I teach that a traditional trained English wheel master will say this guy in is a fool-meaning me. I say it at every class now I have actual comments. It's a big cosmos people do things sometimes the same and sometime they differ. Some of the power hammer guys think that traditional English wheeling methods are slow and inefficient. I state at every class traditional pattern English wheeling yields the best results, when done to a very high standard.



VonDutch5151 2 hours ago

FSP's do not work. Real craftsman who make panels for a living do not use Flexible Shape Patterns. All the positive comments on here, I can guarantee none of you have ever done it for a living or actually constructed parts using the FSP's. If you had or tried you will know what I am saying. Trust me when saying the method he uses is wrong, the execution is wrong, the placement of the welds is wrong. And to charge others to learn this crap method is wrong. Idea of panel making is not to have 200 hours of panel beating AFTER you finish the panel trying to straighten it because of the erroneous way it was made. Sorry Mr Schelin you may be a nice guy but to present yourself as a Guru when you obviously have very little practical panel making experience (doing it for a living) is wrong. Observe someone like Geoff Moss who is trained in the Traditional method. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6GTMAMUee4 There is a huge difference between someone trained in the Traditional Method of Coachbuilding and someone who is self taught.(Mr. Schelin) Notice the difference in weld placement in theory and execution. You DON"T need massive pressure when using a wheel. Anyways I could go on but I know this is falling on deaf ears.



Wray Schelin's Pro Shaper Sheet Metal LLC


2 hours ago


Traditional methods work, no one is arguing that. Non traditional methods work as well and sometimes better. The proof is always in the pudding. Watch to the end. 😁😁😁




Peter, anything you want me to say in response seeing that he does read the comments? I'll be your proxy

[cliffrod]

Like I said-

"Don't give them any recognition or acknowledgement. They'll only gain in following because they'll claim to be able to teach a novice more faster & easier than the grumpy old men. all it takes is a little more money to save a lot of time. That's the perfection of their pitch. they need criticism to boost their standings. If the best costs the most, why would a true expert charge less for better results? Raise your prices to the same crazy level while still keeping the truthful slow & difficult process and that doesn't compete well either. It's a downward spiral that's a dangerous distraction to preserving and perpetuating the proper old ways."

Don't bite their hook. The more views, the better for them. The more comments, the better for them. They need the controversy to be relevant as a innovative resource. That's one of the basic tenets of being a such a leader. The great fallacy is that you don't have to be right to lead certain people, just controversial. You won't convince their audience. Their audience has to convince themselves when things don't work in the real world.

[Chris_Hamilton]

Well put Cliff. I shall zip it from here on.