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this is the Italian way, brings back memories from 1968

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Chris_Hamilton View Post
    This clearly appears to be a foam of some sort. The plastic I know i can't do but the foam interests me because I think it is possible to replicate what they are doing.

    Click image for larger version

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    I have one Metal shaping book which uses taxidermist Foam to make ... 1 off Panel Bucks.😉👍
    https://www.precisionpanelcraft.co.uk/

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Moving molecules . View Post

      I have one Metal shaping book which uses taxidermist Foam to make ... 1 off Panel Bucks.😉👍
      Interesting , whats the books name ?

      What durometer rating would be needed ?

      Thanks

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      • #33
        if you look closely at this pic it appears there is some sort of resin on top of the foam. Look at the bottom edge. I wonder if they are coating it with an epoxy resin of some sort to increase the hardness and durability?
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        Edit......Looking at the other picture of this makes me doubt my first theory. Looks to be glue in the other pic because it appears that there are multiple pieces glued together. Also whatever it is, is strong enough to be able to hold screws, so maybe it is plastic. Still it is a very interesting method.
        Attached Files
        Last edited by Chris_Hamilton; 11-03-21, 07:45 PM.

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        • #34
          The softer rigid foams mill very fast with cnc mill- standard stuff for enlargement pieces at bronze foundry I have used for over a decade. Glue up blanks as needed and mill to use. The surfacing via cnc takes longer to resolve all the combing or lands left from the cutter head. The same process is used for granite for both manufacturing and some carving projects. one big Breton 5 axis CNC mill- about which the purchasing granite manufacturer repeatedly consulted with me as they were buying/installing- can handle a 17' long block of granite between centers and I think weight capacity is around 5-6 tons. Ed said he can do the same granite/stone work at his foundry with his mill, but it is not time-practical enough to be profitable. Typically cnc milling carvings in granite is only cost effective for repetitive work, not one-off projects. Milling super hard or high durometer "plastic" fits well between foam and granite.

          Enlargements at the bronze foundry are first scanned, then digitized, then milled undersized by around 1/4". Molten plastilina clay is then applied with a brush to build surface as needed before the sculptor corrects job, produces all fine detail & tools the finished surface. Then it is either scanned-enlarged-milled-skinned-modeled again and repeat as needed until the final size is met. Alternately, molds can be milled just as easily as long as the tool head can access as needed. Just like any mill, there's a cone of access that limits what the cutting head can reach and cut without hitting the work.

          If you already have got a CAD file full size and not needing correction, there's no need to enlarge a scale model like a sculptor does. It wouldn't surprise me if the foam used in these pics is either high durometer as delivered or is typical softer foam (that's exactly what this foam looks like), possibly reinforced (before or after milling), and milled to a consistent +/- value before a harder high-build resin or epoxy is added before finish milling to a final surface. That would probably be faster and more cost effective. The final surface may even be hand finished to make sure all combing is cleared. The green buck portions shown may be the product of similarly milled molds used to cast harder positive product.

          Maybe what they do it completely different than I've described. But I'm confident I could take a digitized file (scanned or CAD) to Ed and have a foam or plastic buck milled like this with no big issues as long as I paid his $$ and waited my turn.

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          • Chris_Hamilton
            Chris_Hamilton commented
            Editing a comment
            Thanks for the explanation. Makes sense.

        • #35
          Originally posted by abarthdave View Post

          Interesting , whats the books name ?

          What durometer rating would be needed ?

          Thanks
          Book is okay.iss 6/10 a bit US based ( Power Hammers etc ).

          Tuck shrinking is wrong ....again.

          our friend Peter is the only one that seems to have the practical knowledge.

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          Last edited by Moving molecules .; 12-03-21, 07:09 AM.
          https://www.precisionpanelcraft.co.uk/

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          • #36
            [QUOTE=Moving molecules .;n5599]

            We have one more Ferrari 275 coming so would be nice to offer some Italian Traditional panel beating Equipment here in the U.K..
            early race cars were hammered this way ...??


            the hammers are certainly handy for that type of work
            Peter T.

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            • #37

              Peter,
              I keep going back over these pictures because, well they are so damn great.
              After looking at them more I have noticed in the first series of five pictures that the headlight flange was turned with a minimum of metal.
              Then an additional strip of material was welded in to get the correct width for the flange.
              I asked about that and you explained that yes that is the way it was done.

              Then I see in the 7th series of pictures in picture 1 and 2 it appears that only one of the three pieces making up the headlight area have the flange strip welded in.
              Or possibly the weld has been dressed out and I can't see it on two of the three parts.
              If I am correct and the strip of metal is only welded onto one of the three parts and the other two are turned in the normal manner.
              I am wondering why it is done that way.????
              So my question is.....
              Is there some guiding principal on when you would turn a flange with minimal material and then weld in a strip rather then turn the flange the full width in the normal fashion.????
              Damn I hope that makes sense LOL.

              David Bradbury





              David Bradbury

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              • #38
                Guys here another shop in Italy.... but it's spoken in Italian

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJJz-1onAMU

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                • #39
                  Another video from the same Shop.

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RE54mF2KWxU

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                  • #40
                    Originally posted by Chris_Hamilton View Post
                    Another video from the same Shop.

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RE54mF2KWxU
                    It's good but unfortunately some Italian shop lack the knowledge of using the English wheel , there for all their finish is done with the hammer dolly and then filed , which is OK....... but could you imagine if they where be able to use the English wheel ? Having said that some shops like the one on the pics I posted above work with Eckolds and pneumatic hammers and the finish is much much better . That is one of the reason I have been selling some of my cast wheels in Europe then I am asked to go over and teach on how to use them .
                    Peter T.

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                    • #41
                      Awesome material and information Peter. We are privileged to have you among us. I wish I had started this journey decades ago.

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                      • #42
                        Originally posted by galderdi View Post
                        Awesome material and information Peter. We are privileged to have you among us. I wish I had started this journey decades ago.
                        Never too late
                        Peter T.

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                        • #43
                          Peter, perhaps you could comment. One thing I've noticed watching these various Italian vids, is that they seem to use chasing tools frequently. Seem to use them to form in various ways that I haven't seen elsewhere. Lots of shots where they are forming the panel into something. In shots of the tooling they use there are lots of chasing tools of all sizes and shapes. Like in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8m0i5j69xEI approximately 24 seconds in there is a shot of a lot chasing tools. Several shots of tooling in that video.

                          Do you know much about this technique? Could you talk about it a little if you do?

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                          • #44
                            Originally posted by Chris_Hamilton View Post
                            Peter, perhaps you could comment. One thing I've noticed watching these various Italian vids, is that they seem to use chasing tools frequently. Seem to use them to form in various ways that I haven't seen elsewhere. Lots of shots where they are forming the panel into something. In shots of the tooling they use there are lots of chasing tools of all sizes and shapes. Like in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8m0i5j69xEI approximately 24 seconds in there is a shot of a lot chasing tools. Several shots of tooling in that video.

                            Do you know much about this technique? Could you talk about it a little if you do?
                            Chris
                            That is simply how most of the Italian carrozzerie work ..... lot's of hand work and they are good with the hammer , they only use necessary machines ,the like of a Eckold and power hammers , their tool boxes are filled with hand made tools of all sorts and chasing tools , the Italians call them ''scarpelli '' .Once I visited a shop in Modena and the guy there would have 100 of those chasing tools, all well made (by hand ) and I lost count of how many dollies and varies gadgets he had in the box ,and yes they use them all at varies stages. it simply astonishing to see them work. As an example ...have you ever seen the rounded louvers that the Ferrari GTO has on the quarter panel.? .Well back way then I think was around 1968 I have seen those louvers been made by hand just with a piece of wood and the chasing tools ...incredible !

                            PS i also have quite a few chasing tools like they have and use them quite often
                            Peter T.

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