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Light Discussion About Full Radius Anvils vs Flats

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  • Peter Tommasini
    replied
    my believe is that once one uses the full radius anvils, he would never go back to flats
    Peter T.

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  • dennis
    replied
    If the material is case hardened the hardening is only about ten thousandth's of an inch deep,which would require rehardening if you remove more than this amount. if the material is fully heat treated the whole part is hardened through to the core so no retreatment required ,You can tell when doing the machining .
    Regards Dennis

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  • Just Lookin
    replied
    Originally posted by Bill Tromblay View Post

    [Pictures and some text omitted to save space]

    ... So because of this discussion and some unexpected free time this weekend, I re-machined the dies. I'm lucky to have a Haas CNC turning center in my shop, so I made a manderal, and turned the profile. On the 12" radius die, the flat was almost 1" (25mm) wide, now they are all machined to a full radius.

    The difference is very noticeable. When I bought my frame, I asked Peter what the max pressure should be and he said 1/4 turn of the lower. With the flat dies, it would take almost a 1/4 turn to develop shape. Now with the full radius dies, I can run very low pressure and develop a lot of shape, quickly and easily.

    Thanks again for the video

    Bill
    Question: I thought anvils were heat treated to impart strength / reduce wear. Would turning any anvil without heat treating again lead to faster wear and 'flats'? Not commenting on whether these were treated again. Just asking the question.

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  • Kiwi john
    replied
    Originally posted by Steve Murphy View Post
    And all this time I just thought I was a little thick because the flat theory went over my head!
    Thanks Steve. I was beginning to think it was just me ! I am running a fairly stiff fabricated frame with Peter's lower anvils and the top being a concrete agitator wheel that Dennis trued up and removed a fair bit of mass from. It does a pretty good job but like Neil says it does'nt have the "feel" of a cast machine. I tend to think that minimising run-out is paramount especially with TR and fabricated combinations. Providing I take it easy the shape comes up relatively quickly and predictably. Squeezing a little too hard will produce lines but an old guy once told me that the metal will speak to you if you listen. It will then show you the error of your ways if you don't !

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  • OldnEK
    replied
    Great Video, on the explanation. I mentioned to you years ago, about why I was getting marks in my panel. If only you made the video back then......

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  • Steve Murphy
    replied
    And all this time I just thought I was a little thick because the flat theory went over my head!

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  • kenc
    replied
    Peter,
    As you pointed out earlier though the anvils with flats are very handy for stretching an edge. After I saw you write that I got down an anvil with flats off the top shelf in my garage and used it for that purpose - much easier than with a true radius anvil - for that purpose only.

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  • Peter Tommasini
    replied
    Joeswamp the pull down system is used with very little pressure ,on the video that I just posted you will see just that the pulling down in a arch, pulling towards the top wheel is totally different method that is used when either when one needs to get rid of some shape or... one needs to smooth things out over the whole panel and that we called ''wash over'' but again in both cases pressure is the key in another words...... as a moderator on another forum said '' all metal needs is PSI '' well that is a lot of crap ! I have seen this person in action and just by looking and listening at him..... I can tell you that he has done very little wheeling and his knowledge in metalshaping is close to a big fat 0
    Peter T.
    PS I think you are right by saying that the flats on the lower anvils where mistaken by a worn lower, so people thought that that is the way they are and start making them that way
    Last edited by Peter Tommasini; 09-19-2019, 11:39 PM.

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  • joeswamp
    replied
    This was a really fantastic video, showing a lot of information I don't think has ever been presented before. It makes me wonder how flats ever started to be used -- I wonder if self-taught folks in the US just happened to inherit a bunch of worn-out anvils and found they could get them to work if they made the frames really stiff.

    What I find most interesting about full radius anvils is the ability to wheel at very low pressures, using the technique of pulling down on the panel as you're wheeling. I've done this on some small patch panels (no idea if I was doing it right) but it does seem to work. I've also heard that there are some times where you pull up against the upper wheel, to smooth things out. I've often wondered how these techniques work with large two-man panels -- do both operators pull down as the panel stiffens up? It does seem like there's a big emphasis on keeping large panels level.

    Again, great video!

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  • dennis
    replied
    Hi All
    After watching Peters video on flats and full radius anvils, i decided to modify my set of Hoosier flat wheels to full radius,after three hours of polishing i now have a set of full radius, i am amazed at the difference as peter says flat wheels don't work.I used to put very high pressure to get any result from the flats ,now i can get shape with very light pressure and very easily with no tracking lines from the full radius wheels, the other thing i noticed is that it is a lot easier to control the panel running through the wheels,with the flats it was very hard to steer the panel, i assume this was because of the high pressure needed to get the wheels to do any work. I am a full radius convert.
    Regards Dennis

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  • Kiwi john
    replied
    Originally posted by RockHillWill View Post
    Thanks Bill and Peter, and the owners of this site. It is enjoyable to read and learn from such talented guys without worrying about pissing off the moderators!
    Hi Will. Neil and I set this forum up only to ensure the traditional craft is passed on . It's only function is to allow the craftsmen who choose to share their knowledge with others, the opportunity to do so without interference or bias. I would love to see David Gardiner post here but from what I understand he was insulted at the deliberate attacks on his methods and techniques. No forum can expect contributions from the masters and then seek to censure that information when it suits

    Each person that contributes is an "owner" of the site The forum is just the concert hall The audience is there for the maestro's performance and the maestro is there for the audience


    Cheers Johnny Leftie





















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  • neilb
    replied
    Originally posted by RockHillWill View Post
    Thanks Bill and Peter, and the owners of this site. It is enjoyable to read and learn from such talented guys without worrying about pissing off the moderators!
    will, we are all here for Peter. it's nice to see him posting and showing what is correct and why. as the saying goes "the simplest explanation is usually the correct one" is the same for metal shaping. the simplest way is the correct way.

    it's also nice to see everyone benefiting from his experience which is all he wants us to do, why someone would argue with that is beyond me.

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  • Peter Tommasini
    replied
    Originally posted by RockHillWill View Post
    Thanks Bill and Peter, and the owners of this site. It is enjoyable to read and learn from such talented guys without worrying about pissing off the moderators!
    Yes Will that is why I left the other Forum... but the main reason that made me leave is that a certain moderator who knows F**k all about metalshaping wanted to argue with me and other professional that do this type of work for a living day in and day out. This moderator also carried on about David Gardener mentioning his dvd's when explaining a specific job on many of his posts, and band him from the Forum... BUT guess what.... now this moderator himself is advertising dvd's from another guy ''teaching'' in the US ???? In one of his post he must had about 20 + dvd;s titles available for others members to watch
    Peter T.
    Last edited by Peter Tommasini; 09-17-2019, 02:53 PM.

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  • RockHillWill
    replied
    Thanks Bill and Peter, and the owners of this site. It is enjoyable to read and learn from such talented guys without worrying about pissing off the moderators!

    Leave a comment:


  • Chazza
    replied
    What a fantastic and lucid explanation Peter!

    In one short video, you have for me destroyed the myth of flat anvils; I am so glad I purchased full-radius anvils from Hoosier many years ago,

    Cheers Charlie

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