Light Discussion About Full Radius Anvils vs Flats

[Peter Tommasini]

Hi Guys.
Here is the latest video that we've made.

[Kiwi john]

Thanks Peter for that very informative video. You have confirmed my opinion that a flat anvil requires more pressure to achieve shape than does a full radius. I hope you don’t offend anyone ( not that it’s your intention ) but rather that we stand back and weigh up the logic and draw our own conclusions. I appreciate you taking the time to share this knowledge with us. Cheers John

[neilb]

came out good after the editing

[Bill Tromblay]

Hi,

Great video! I agree with the full radius lowers. I have heard that "airplane guys" use flat lowers in 2024 aluminum but I don't know "who" or "why" it is done. The reason for the 6inch wide, 50" radius no flat lower was to support large, low crown panels. It is 6inch in diameter to decrease the diameter ratio from the upper to the lower anvil. On initial forming, the corner of the wheel does not touch the panel, but as the panel develope, more of the panel will rest on the lower. The ultra wide wheel helps prevent unwanted lower wheel edge marks from improper wheeling technique. Does it work, sure... Is it the only way or a must have??? 😞😞😊😀😀



Thanks Bill

[RockHillWill]

I also found the video to be very helpful, thanks Peter ! I have visited with Cass Nawrocki, the gentleman that I learned about this wheel from on 8-10 occasions, and after seeing him display the use of this wide wheel on large and small low crown panels, I was so impressed that I came home and made (4) of them in conjunction with a well known and talented welder and machinist. I tried it at Jims after he adjusted Peters wheeling machine and found it much easier to form low crown panels with out a 'helper'. As a low level wheeling machine operator, I felt it made the forming of the low crown panel a bit easier because I am not overly proficient at tracking using full radius anvils, and the wide lower made that less of a problem. I have not tried it, but I also that it would be very useful in taking a small amount of crown OUT of a low crown panel, again with no helper. I also remember Peter telling me that NO panel should be completely straight, and I plan on using this for those applications where maybe a 'non-noticeable' crown might be used to provide some degree of 'stiffness'

I also found the video to be very helpful, thanks Peter!

[cliffrod]

Thank you, Peter. I feel very lucky to have not done more with metal until crossing paths with you, Will and Jim. Those 30 years were worth the wait.

[Blue62]

Peter,
Great explanation of the differences between the flat and true radius wheels. The board drawings and wheeling demo drove the ideas home.
hoping to see more videos. I would like to see one of you making the panels that go with your paper pattern video.

What I like the most and find entertaining, is watching an old Italian Master of his trade explain things with an Australian accent

[Peter Tommasini]

Peter,
Great explanation of the differences between the flat and true radius wheels. The board drawings and wheeling demo drove the ideas home.
hoping to see more videos. I would like to see one of you making the panels that go with your paper pattern video.

What I like the most and find entertaining, is watching an old Italian Master of his trade explain things with an Australian accent

David Part one of the Ferrari front panel should be on You Tube and on this Forum by next Tuesday or Wednesday

And Yes you are right ...One would think that after 49 Years in Australia, I would have lost my Italian accent but unfortunally I have not . I just hope that you guys with the American accent can understand me
Peter T.

[Peter Tommasini]

I also found the video to be very helpful, thanks Peter ! I have visited with Cass Nawrocki, the gentleman that I learned about this wheel from on 8-10 occasions, and after seeing him display the use of this wide wheel on large and small low crown panels, I was so impressed that I came home and made (4) of them in conjunction with a well known and talented welder and machinist. I tried it at Jims after he adjusted Peters wheeling machine and found it much easier to form low crown panels with out a 'helper'. As a low level wheeling machine operator, I felt it made the forming of the low crown panel a bit easier because I am not overly proficient at tracking using full radius anvils, and the wide lower made that less of a problem. I have not tried it, but I also that it would be very useful in taking a small amount of crown OUT of a low crown panel, again with no helper. I also remember Peter telling me that NO panel should be completely straight, and I plan on using this for those applications where maybe a 'non-noticeable' crown might be used to provide some degree of 'stiffness'

I also found the video to be very helpful, thanks Peter!

Will if you remember at Oblong we made a low crown panel very quickly by using a high crown anvil and you said....... [Quote] that is the first time I have seen a door skin with all four corners touching the ground at the same time .........What that shows is... that there is no need (IN MY OPPINION) to have a much larger lower anvil

Having said that ......if the larger anvil suit you please go ahead and use it

[RockHillWill]

I remember that well, Peter. It was VERY impressive, but it was two of us, me and 'Uncle Johnny'. This wider lower seems a bit easier for me to use by myself, but it does require a 'holder' change in addition to switching the anvil. This wider lower would seem to be a limited use item, but you know I have a penchant for making tools, hoping that will make me a better metal shaper, and this was an adventure for me in that regard as well.

Also, like Oblong, there was a line to use your cast iron wheeling machine at Jim Hery's Redneck Roundup.

[johnmar]

Hi Peter,

When at Geoff's we also had a conversation on flat wheels and full radiused wheels.
We came to the conclusion that a flat anvil would be of no use.

Geoff said the anvils he used where flats, but not flats. What he meant was: a full radius anvil has a radius that continues over the anvil, but his flats had a flatter spot (flatter, but not complete flat). So the contact point had a lower radius than the anvil itself, but the contact point was NOT flat. He uses his flats on his Edwards wheel (Have not looked at his The Ranalah anvils.)

It seems though if you by a set of flat anvils nowadays, you get a true flat contact point (which is of no use as Geoff and you both seem to be trying to explain to us).

I did took a photo of his non-true-flat anvil:



It is probably not that visible, but the "flat" anvils have a lower radius (than the radius of the anvil) at the contact point, but that contact point is NOT flat itself (it still had a radius/crown).

So you have true flats but want radiused flats (or flattened radius anvils):
So what to do if you have bought a set of true-flats (and not the flattened radius ones that Geoff knows as flats). Goeff's suggestion was to put these in a lathe, spint the lathe up and using emery cloth on file, place it on the flat and move/hold it to the left for a measured time, and repeat this on the right (holding it there for the same time inteval for instance: 30 seconds or one minute. Then check is your progress..
This way you'll convert the flat spot into a more radiused flat. I have not tried this yet (as I've not yet checked my lower anvils), but it does makes sense..

Johnmar

[Peter Tommasini]

Hi Peter,

When at Geoff's we also had a conversation on flat wheels and full radiused wheels.
We came to the conclusion that a flat anvil would be of no use.

Geoff said the anvils he used where flats, but not flats. What he meant was: a full radius anvil has a radius that continues over the anvil, but his flats had a flatter spot (flatter, but not complete flat). So the contact point had a lower radius than the anvil itself, but the contact point was NOT flat. He uses his flats on his Edwards wheel (Have not looked at his The Ranalah anvils.)

It seems though if you by a set of flat anvils nowadays, you get a true flat contact point (which is of no use as Geoff and you both seem to be trying to explain to us).

I did took a photo of his non-true-flat anvil:



It is probably not that visible, but the "flat" anvils have a lower radius (than the radius of the anvil) at the contact point, but that contact point is NOT flat itself (it still had a radius/crown).

So you have true flats but want radiused flats (or flattened radius anvils):
So what to do if you have bought a set of true-flats (and not the flattened radius ones that Geoff knows as flats). Goeff's suggestion was to put these in a lathe, spint the lathe up and using emery cloth on file, place it on the flat and move/hold it to the left for a measured time, and repeat this on the right (holding it there for the same time inteval for instance: 30 seconds or one minute. Then check is your progress..
This way you'll convert the flat spot into a more radiused flat. I have not tried this yet (as I've not yet checked my lower anvils), but it does makes sense..

Johnmar

Hi Johnmar that is exactly what I do just simply take a bit of the sharp radius off...... BUT NOT FLATTENED the middle of the radius FLAT !!!

So when do we use these flatter radius I hear you guys saying ? .....Well just to finish off a low crown skin or low crown panel rather then use a full radius and risk to over shaped the now finished panel ,or in some case smooth or stretch a return .

So FINALLY .........as I always have said.... and now we have heard from one of the best in the business in England (Mr Geoff Moss ) FLAT ANVILS DO NOT WORK !!!!! PERIOD !!!!!! Now if someone out there still believe that flats are better than full radius .. Well then .... use them see if I care!!!
Peter T.

[Bill Tromblay]

Hi,

Two years ago I purchased a set of used Hoosier Profile lower anvils from Ebay. As you can see, they were modified with flats and were in relative poor condition. To develop shape I had to run a higher pressure which lead to wheel alignment issues. Even with a cast frame, you still get flex, very small but it is still there which is a good thing. The flex would cause the flat on the lower to no longer match the flat of the upper. So you would have to try and set the lower so it would be flat to the upper while under pressure, a real pain to deal with.



So because of this discussion and some unexpected free time this weekend, I re-machined the dies. I'm lucky to have a Haas CNC turning center in my shop, so I made a manderal, and turned the profile. On the 12" radius die, the flat was almost 1" (25mm) wide, now they are all machined to a full radius.

The difference is very noticeable. When I bought my frame, I asked Peter what the max pressure should be and he said 1/4 turn of the lower. With the flat dies, it would take almost a 1/4 turn to develop shape. Now with the full radius dies, I can run very low pressure and develop a lot of shape, quickly and easily.

Thanks again for the video

Bill

[Peter Tommasini]

Bill you will find that when you get use to work with full radius things will be quicker and smoother . on another note the flex on the cast frame is purposely there for the reason you mention (meaning ) if there was no flex ...then you would not have the feel of pressure applied. Also when turning the adjusting wheel just turn it up or down about 5 mm at the time
Peter T.

PS you must have had a lot of unnecessary pressure with the flats in order not to match the two flats surfaces on a cast frame?
Remember from 12 o'clock to 3 o'clock on the turning wheel will give you max pressure sometime a bit more (if you are blocking with the lower anvil) in another words you never have to turn half of the wheel + now with the full radius anvils you will feel immediately when you use too much pressure try this..... to start with insert 1.6 piece of alloy on the wheel adjust your gap between the wheels at say... 1.3 test that... and then adjust up or down from there

[Chazza]

What a fantastic and lucid explanation Peter!

In one short video, you have for me destroyed the myth of flat anvils; I am so glad I purchased full-radius anvils from Hoosier many years ago,

Cheers Charlie