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  • #16
    Originally posted by galderdi View Post
    Wow guys, I am so glad I started this thread. I would have gone down the rabbit hole for sure. Thankyou for putting so much time and effort into the responses. I am still a way off starting to shape metal so I will certainly look into the best approach. Or at least the best approach I can achieve with my circumstances. I'll be purchasing a set of Peter's DVDs shortly.....thank goodness I have a second TV or my wife might divorce me on watching them 3 (or more) times. I might even have to move them into my shed.
    Move them in to the shed ? NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT LOL
    Peter T.

    PS ...have you seen the dvd's when ''our friend'' makes the spider front guard and rear quarter sections ? Let me tell you ,and some of the forum
    members can back me up ...... that is ..... DEFINITELY NOT THE WAY to do that panel , there is a much better , quicker, easier, way .
    His way is only going to get you in the S**T
    Last edited by Peter Tommasini; 12-04-21, 05:40 AM.

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    • #17
      I count myself lucky that you caught me before I actually started the shaping. I'm looking forward to learning the better methods.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by MP&C View Post



        John, very well put. My "conversations" with other metal shapers here in the states from back in those early days when shaping forums were starting, are that the inventor of the facilitator did not care for stumps. I guess with people building wheeling machines for the masses, and other such tools, he had to make things out of steel, and no way this wooden block would work. They said it's funny to see someone now inventing what's been used for many years. Sure, it's made of 2X lumber and cut to the shape you want, but its a fukin stump! He had to change the name and continues to this day to talk down stumps so he won't be eating crow, but it's still a stump... The other thing I was made privy to, as I did not start metal shaping until more recently, was that he would come up with some kind of widget to move some metal. Then would show it to everybody. Everybody says "ooooooooh. metal moved" And then they would start making their own metal moving widget. regardless of how inefficient it might be. So basically it was the blind leading the blind. Unlike men like Peter and Jeff Moss, who learned the trade from other skilled men, and learned CORRECTLY, the traditional methods that were proven and EFFICIENT. Even a person of my limited abilities can watch the same videos and see that someone hasn't the slightest clue. Weld a patch next to a flange and wonder why the flange drops? The weld shrinks!! but he never did anything to planish out the weld to remove the low. Kept bumping up the flange and putting the bottom edge in tension which made a wave. Flatten the wave and the low reappears. And....he.....kept...… repeating, like it was magically going to change the 6th time he did the same thing.. Never did finish that did he? Put a spline in a MC fender and then try to duck tail the back end? The spline acts as a lock, it should be the last thing done. I understand why Clint doesn't like giving the guy a wider platform to spread his misinformation but I also think it could be a good learning tool in the proper setting to show why it was wrong, show what is the correct method, and why his methods are a complete waste of effort. After all, we learn better from our own mistakes, right??

        Which brings up another point by a good friend of mine that Peter knows, Charlie Cerutti. Charlie says you can watch all those videos he puts out but NOTHING is ever completed. The latest repair/fabrication goes back in a corner to collect dust because the part never is an acceptable product. He is in the business of selling tools and selling classes. And because he doesn't entirely understand what the hell he's doing, all he can do is cater to those who don't yet know. Sad to say it is an extreme dis-service to those wanting to learn but they're being taught garbage.
        You are right on the money Robert.

        I didn't post a reply to Greg to create an opportunity to belittle anyone or take anything from their accomplishments but as a business owner like so many others on this site, I know if I sell a crap product or deliver poor service, the customer will be back pretty smart for a refund or replacement.

        The issue I have is that more often than not a person with no real prior knowledge is placing their trust and hard earned, tax paid dollars in a " teacher. "

        That teacher has a fiducial responsibility. I would be bloody annoyed to discover perhaps years later that I paid to be deceived.

        Conned . Stitched up . Screwed over. I cant return the product. I cant undo the bad habits. I cant retrieve the lost time and opportunity . Cant saw sawdust.

        It is an act of fraud and deception to lead them to believe you are offering a professional service when infact you are not

        Cheers and thanks J

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        • #19
          Originally posted by cliffrod View Post





          Man, Johnny- these two quotes should be a sticky "Mission Statement" or something like that. Charlie has good words, too. I know I bitch and ramble and probably step on toes sometimes, but I understand how influential those little ingrained tidbits- the things that pop up in your head when you are doing automatically without actively thinking- can be. There is no room for the wrong influence and there are no short cuts.

          Better men make better men. Properly shaping men is much more difficult than properly shaping metal. Or at least it's more pc to hit metal with a hammer....
          Cliffy. If we could hit a few over the head with the proverbial hammer we may shorten the learning curve . But that's not P.C today. My hope for this forum is that we can leave a legacy for the next generation. Pass on the knowledge to the next generation , trusting that they forgive the sins of their forebears. Neil is gifted ( as much as a Pom can be ) and is a great student. He is able to absorb what Peter teaches then replicate the instructions to the letter. Me . I improvise and have yet to attain the discipline . That is part weakness on my part and an underlying desire to achieve at minimum output with the least input . Not a good trait ...... thats me. Today at least.........
          ..
          I just hope as administrators we don't mix our responsibilities with our egos. You don't bitch and you don't ramble. You are a highly valued member and we appreciate your input .


          Johnny

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Kiwi john View Post

            Cliffy. If we could hit a few over the head with the proverbial hammer we may shorten the learning curve . But that's not P.C today. My hope for this forum is that we can leave a legacy for the next generation. Pass on the knowledge to the next generation , trusting that they forgive the sins of their forebears. Neil is gifted ( as much as a Pom can be ) and is a great student. He is able to absorb what Peter teaches then replicate the instructions to the letter. Me . I improvise and have yet to attain the discipline . That is part weakness on my part and an underlying desire to achieve at minimum output with the least input . Not a good trait ...... thats me. Today at least.........
            ..
            I just hope as administrators we don't mix our responsibilities with our egos. You don't bitch and you don't ramble. You are a highly valued member and we appreciate your input .


            Johnny
            Add this ^^^ to the sticky, too. Mixing ego with responsibilities is always the big risk. Some may not believe it, but I'm trying to do the same thing. What I would like to say could go here or on the post under you last "Peter's 180.." comment.


            I tell every younger (17 to early 20's) know it all that they'll be the richest, most powerful man in the history of the world if they simply do one thing. Write THE book. Just write it all down, because it's clear that you know everything. But if you don't do it right now, you'll start forgetting all the right answers and you'll be more stupid by the next time we see each other. Then you'll keep getting even more stupid every day for the rest of your life. The next time I see them, I ask them if they've written the book yet. Nobody has done it yet. and nobody has denied that they might not be as smart as they were on that yesterday. That includes me. I'm very stupid at this point in life, but the most important part is that I know that I don't know it all.

            I grew up farming. Bulls will maim and kill you. Tractors and farm equipment will maim and kill you. Make mistakes and animals (your $$$ and livelihood) die. Gramp had lost nearly half his fingers on the farm- mostly from being a dumbass who thought he could outsmart that meat-eating machine, but they were still stumps & nubs. No do-overs. The stone sheds were just over the hill and just as dangerous, except that little boys were no longer allowed to work there like on the farm.

            There's value in observing the wrong way briefly as an educational lesson and moving on. But nobody studies math (2+3=9, watch and I'll show you how...) or culinary by memorizing the wrong way dumb shit that doesn't work. The difference is that the novice doesn't have the critical perspective of the advanced craftsman. That's part of Giuliano's "No, no, - you don't understand.." lesson that I've mentioned. That's a sage observation, not a judgmental criticism. The novice doesn't know when to call it bs and move on, so they gain a different result from the repeated review and it corrupts their path. That's why I like the "Be careful little eyes what you see" approach. I know how good or bad a gorgeous naked woman may look. As an older, wiser (and 2x divorced) man I now know understand that I'm stupid to stand there, linger and extensively critique her in front of my wife....

            What you three are actively doing here (and the rest of us by default) is trying to prevent what has already happened in my craft and accelerated during my 20+ yrs in it. There are differences, but there are too many similarities for me to overlook. I'm no more than a canary in the coal mine. The solution isn't to get another cheap canary when this one dies....

            One day while doing the MLK fight, I watched one of my Masters shed tears (both anger and sad) as we talked. He said "these people talk like we never did this work and never trained men like you to keep doing it. It's all lies. They're wanting to pretend we never existed. Like the men who taught me never existed. It's not right. Thank you for fighting for us and everything we've done. You're doing the right thing. This is why we taught you what we know."

            Part of what they taught me to do was to make sure it was done and keeps being done. That's a lot different now than it was during their times. I'm one of about a dozen actual industry-trained experts left in a country of 330M. Not exaggerating. We are not welcome amongst the proshapers of the stone art world, the hoards of MFA, PhD & professional artists who cannot even sharpen a chisel. Forums? not even worth surfing, much less joining or contributing. I could answer so many of the "what do I do..?" issues they ask about, only to be pummeled by every idiot that can only peck keys. Postmodernism means truth and reality doesn't matter. Since stone only tells the truth about what the artist does to it, the "artist" has to create an alternate truth to create success from their obvious failure. The ship has already sailed. I'll be 54 this week and am one of the young ones, possibly to be the last truly apprenticed carver/sculptor in the USA industry because of the new market, legal and financial realities. The obligation to Masters that compels and drives me is about the actual truth of craft and marketable product produced upon demand- not sample/example shit stacked in the corner and given away or hauled off for scrap. the proshapers have a different compulsion- trying to validate what they do by repeating it so many times that their influence is larger and then supposedly more relevant than the smaller voice of truth and reality. Then their audience doesn't want to be called out as failures, either, so the false narrative grows and grows unless someones humbly admits failure and starts over again. The only reason anyone wants to learn from someone like me is to do a video (in the USA) or to send it to china so they can finish putting us out of business. It's sad to be able to see the end. When I was younger, I participated in the demise of the family farm here in the USA. Now I'm doing it again in the granite industry sculpture trade. Both things being done within my immediate family. Not cool. You guys are in a good position to produce a different result.


            Metalshaping amazes me. Compared to my work, it's so cheap, easy to handle and infinitely forgiving. Imagine if you had to replace $25 of your tools an hour, maybe 1-2 body hammers and 1-2 dollies per 8 hr day. Worn out, junk, no longer usable or will cost 50% of new $$ to rebuild to use again for that same short period of time. Imagine not being able to pick up anything large enough to work without a crane. Imagine not being able to weld or attach- everything in a piece of work is done in one piece. No mistakes. No do-overs. One chance to do it right or throw it out. Now imaging that the one piece of media for this one-shot attempt costs thousands$$ and takes wks or months to get into your shop. This develops a long-view perspective that spills over into other things. Peter CAN do an entire quarter panel by hand in one piece. When I saw that video, that's what sold me on him being the right man. Still, imagine having to do EVERY panel on EVERY car EVERY TIME like that. Now that my body is apparently very degraded and abused from working stone, I'm trying to do more metal work in ways that don't cripple me for weeks. I greatly appreciate what is being done here. Please don't stop.

            btw- my wife and I just got our first covid shot. I asked the nurse to give my wife the one with the microchips so I could keep track of where she goes. So she asked the nurse to give me the one that would change my DNA so I wouldn't be such a grumpy PIA. So far. my wife is disappointed with the results...



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            • #21
              We are brothers from other Mothers Cliffy. I hear you

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              • #22
                As I typed up my rendition of the tutorial on the roof skin, I just kept thinking : Don't F this up. Pete has given you a simple task. Translate into words using the pics we recorded the critical shit I trusted you with today. No pressure. Don't let them down. I am sure YOU know what i'm saying . Thanks Cliffy for your wisdom

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                • #23
                  P.S the girls always think we are strange. I admire guys like you

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                  • #24
                    Lately I've had way too much non-making-things time, Johnny. Lots of other unavoidable things are being accomplished. I cant wait to get back into the shop. When my daughter heads to college in a few months, I'm supposed to be upgrading to my daughter's old ipad that's many years newer than the ancient one I have now that can't log on here anymore, much less post anything. After the previous big gap between metal time, the big jump-in on that RD350 seat made it clear my chest/shoulder isn't going to agree to that anymore. So I'm working on some solutions.


                    Originally posted by Kiwi john View Post
                    As I typed up my rendition of the tutorial on the roof skin, I just kept thinking : Don't F this up. Pete has given you a simple task. Translate into words using the pics we recorded the critical shit I trusted you with today. No pressure. Don't let them down. I am sure YOU know what i'm saying . Thanks Cliffy for your wisdom
                    When I took Peter's class at Will's shop, he was wide open- basically running 3- 4 of his English Wheels at once and still far ahead of each pair of us students. He knew where our shape was going or why it wasn't, watching all at once, then throw it on the floor & stomp on it or fold it over his knee because that's what it needed. Words were not fast enough. Absolutely in the zone.

                    One of the other students- probably the one whom I respect the most- said he had already taken classes from most of the other big names including Faye Butler, Ron Covell, Kent White and others. He said they each cost more than Peter's classes, some were almost double the $$. He said there was absolutely no comparison to what he was shown, what he learned and most importantly the access he had to Peter. Peter sets a high bar for us, simply by example in how generous and genuine he is. He isn't a walking commercial to buy his everything while telling us glory day stories of how he did this or that thing 20-30 yrs ago. He spent a good portion of our class explaining how much trouble he was having with a specific part, repeated failures, and then how he solved it by doing it in a more basic approach (like you or me would probably have to do it) because he couldn't make it work the other ways that he "should" be able to do it as an expert. He was humble enough to both do it that way and tell us about it so we could do the same. That is a huge lesson in leading by example.

                    that makes me believe Peter will likely correct what I (or you) post- done wrong, skipped a step, isn't going to work like I think it will, whatever. When it happens, I'll deserve it until I can do what he can do. He will do it out of genuine interest and concern to make me into a better craftsman. so I need to accept correction. he knows I will screw up, so I can do it safely under his watch as long as it leads to improvement and I accept his investment. That's how the right Master/Apprentice relationship works. He isn't going to deliberately insult or denigrate me as a person or a craftsman simply because he's "better" than me like others do.

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                    • #25
                      The role of the teacher is to teach. Hand down information to the next generation to ensure a craft or a body of knowledge is transferred. Neil will back me up in confirming that Big P has never let us down. He has never taught us shit that was designed to stroke his ego and make us everlasting students. Offer little titbits that titillate and leave us gasping for more ?. No that's not the man he is. Here's how to do it........ Take on board everything I am saying even though today you don't understand what the relevance is .. ie Trust Me

                      Very few will trust their heirs with their knowledge. If I F up i can simply turn and say "Pete told me." Isn't my fault. Must be the teacher.

                      I wish you guys could be here in Melbourne with us to see the pain on Peters face when he tries to re educate me . I am his problem student. I am the the paying / non paying customer / student he wishes he had never met. But he also knows that I have a burning desire to learn this craft. I view the unadulterated protection of this art form to be my mission. Its our responsibility to help pass it on uninhibited.

                      Yesterday I bought one of his Planisihing hammers. Only the hammer as I have a frame for it to go on. I struggle to do anything other than small to mid size panels on the wheel. Its hard to get a helper on the wheel at the best of times. Larger parts on the wheel just become an exercise in anger management ! I watched Peter put the major form into a few panels the other day single handily on the air hammer and realised that it was a wise investment.

                      Will an air hammer make me a better metal shaper ? No Will it speed the process. Maybe. Will it allow me to save my hands from the cramps that I get while blocking ? Probably. Will it allow me to do larger low crown shapes alone.? You bet ya. At 57 I don't need impediments. Got plenty of those. Peter has paid the price over the years with the hammer swinging he has done. He wishes now that he he developed his air hammer 30 years ago . You don't know what ya don't know.



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                      • #26
                        I would like to give a example on the mater , ( wheeling versus pneumatic hammer )

                        When I started the front nose on the E type jaguar , the first problem that I had was the pain in my shoulders by trying to keep the panel in the right position while wheeling ,then the panel (been quite large ) it was trying to flop in the middle and could not get enough shape in the middle of the panel , so I said ...I am going to go on the hammer. Switched the compressor on , chose the right lower die , test the the die and pressure and I was ready to go . Within 15 minutes I had the panel with enough shape that stopped it from flopping all over the place + enough shape to start shaping to it's full shape ,..... that took 1 hour, been self supported I had no pain on my shoulders at all I kept going till I was happy with the shape , then at the end I simply went back to the wheel and make two passes with the wheel and the job was done ,.... re wheeled the very front with a sharper lower anvil and start turning the mouth over .

                        So what have I achieved ? Did a better job by been on my own , Not paying another operator for the whole length of the build , stop pains on my shoulders , did the job a lot quicker

                        Having said that I would like to emphasize that one needs to know how things works , (the hammer does not do the job for you ) , if you go wrong ? It would just go wrong a lot quicker than when wheeling
                        Peter T.

                        PS Yes ...I could have done the panel in two pieces (lot smaller pieces ) BUT then I would have to match the two panels shape , then measure cut etc, weld them together and planish too much work ! .
                        Last edited by Peter Tommasini; 16-04-21, 12:33 AM.

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                        • #27
                          I haven't bought one of Pete's air hammers because I am talented. I get around 3 to 4 hours a month to play in the shed. I hate having to wait for assistance from a wheeling partner, and watching Peter pre shape a few panels on his Air hammer, alone, prior to commencing wheeling, was enough to convince me that it was the right piece of equipment for me.

                          In the wrong hands they will lead you to disaster way faster. Every mistake happens quicker . But I don't want to wake up in 5 years time and find I cant block a shape because the body says "No. Time up ".

                          I will post the fabrication of the frame then the actual operation of the hammer. Believe me . When you see how quickly Pete can put shape into a piece of metal you will be stunned. Especially low crown stuff.

                          If I can achieve 25 % of what Peter does it will still be worth it

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                          • #28
                            I have received my videos with thanks from Peter Tommasini. Many hours of enjoyment to come.

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                            • #29
                              A new world will open up Greg. My offer stands. If you don't think you have received great training, you know what to do..... You're making great progress on the buck.

                              Cheers Johnny

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Kiwi john View Post
                                A new world will open up Greg. My offer stands. If you don't think you have received great training, you know what to do..... You're making great progress on the buck.

                                Cheers Johnny
                                Thanks John,

                                I know you said down south but where is that?
                                When you organise another weekend where would you post the details?
                                Do you have a dog friendly spot for camping? (Its hard to get away unless I convince the missus its a sort of holiday :-D )

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                                • MP&C
                                  MP&C commented
                                  Editing a comment
                                  tell the missus its work "training"
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