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1967 Moto Guzzi V700 Corsa-Record

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  • #31
    More from WildGuzzi-

    Making the seat hump in two pieces is a chance to practice both making parts to match and then welding shapes, as I work towards building the tank. Making the hump in one piece is easier (making it from the back end of an old gas tank and pop-riveting it onto an original seat pan is faster & even easier....). It doesn't matter- I need the practice. These parts aren't perfect, but they're close enough for this exercise. I had concerns about the hump-taillight agreement, so erred on the side of bigger instead of smaller.

    After parts were trimmed, they were gas welded together. Since the metal grew some, the original .063 edge that hadn't been worked was trimmed away so it was more like .050 thick. There were some nice short segments, along with a few holes that were welded up. Then the high spots were removed with a vixen file.



    I had turned a flange on the front of the two halves, with tentative plans to better finish, slightly trim and produce a butt weld between flange & the similarly trimmed seat pan. I had a better fit to the buck & flange by trimming this flange away, so I did and produced a corner weld instead. Another ok weld, not perfect but good practice.







    Now I had a seat in one piece. More ok welds. Not perfect & some repairs needed, but it's very serviceable. Still need to trim the lower rear portion and continue the false wire edge along the hump portion. A test fit on the bike goes well. The fender and seat agree very well.



    From this view, it's easy to see the hump is taller & more round than the original seat. A detail I'm trying to create is part of the reason it's taller. The original Record bikes used a seat that was likely fiberglass & simply off the shelf, not custom made for the bikes. The period pictures show the seat is pulled in or compressed by the rear attachment screws. This deforms the smooth round shape of the hump and creates a slight shoulder and concave area on the sides. I didn't think I could make a definitive shape and have it look this natural & incidental.

    Instead, I made a little extra height on top and planned to move it to make more of a shoulder. Using a slapper (bent file with teeth on striking face removed & highly polished) a couple of hammers and dollies, I slowly worked down the crown while working the shoulder areas outward to tighten up the lowered crown. Don't stretch the metal. I just moved or rearranged the length & shale that was already there. This worked very well.

    When all looked good, I made a paper pattern from the buck to guide trimming of the lower area of hump.





    Then I marked the aluminum, trimmed and filed as needed and continued turning the false wire edge along the hump portion.



    It came out well, nice flow.



    The hump is much shorter than when originally welded and is much closer to the profile of the buck.



    I haven't done both sides yet, as I still need to fix a welding flaw on the other side before trimming and rolling the edge.





    But for now, things are ok enough to offset the seat on the frame for test fitting against the fender. The fender was made to fit the buck and it fits great. But it doesn't fit the bike properly. It wouldn't reach both factory spender mounts on frame & battery tray. The problem apparently lies with how I merged the two radii and the decreased clearance above the frame with this seat pan vs a stock Loop frame seat pan. The trailing edge of the fender was too close to the tire, as is. I didn't want the tire to grab the fender. btdt, not cool..

    So, I did what I described earlier. I pulled on the ends of the fender to slightly open up the radius. It worked great and was not enough change to significantly impact the cross section radius of the fender.. Now the fender fit both factory mounting points. Better yet, it clears the seat by approx 1/"4 with potential to make it fit closer. And it looks great.



    A few more shots, one with the fender alone and one with fender and seat. obviously with the seat offset because only one side has been finished but still a good demonstration of where things are going.





    Meanwhile, I also mocked up the CEV taillight. I'm trying to develop details that are not Record original details to be as balanced as I can. The seat and light is a good example. The opening for the taillight should be just under 5". When viewed from the rear at eye level, the seat hump is approx 1 1/2" wide to,the right and left of the light opening. So there's approx 3" of seat hump visible vs a tall it that just over 4 3/4" wide. The golden ratio is just over 1.6:1, but using a factor of 1.6 is a quick way to check balance between two details. 3" X 1.6 = 4.8". Very cool. Once all is properly finished,trimmed, edge rolled, rear cut away and fitted at center, it should look great.



    The extra height of the hump should also help marry the seat and light. The original Record seat hump was fairly small. Cutting the end away for the light or hanging the light on the back was not what I wanted to do. Slightly enlarging the hump made more sense.

    As the taillight and license plate fitment is resolved, the rear fender will be shortened. Probably will start by trimming it just longer than the license plate and turning a slight lip or bead on the fender. I also need to work the front of the seat to better fit with the frame top tube & along the other tangent frame rails. The gap is unsightly, but also concerned about bending the seat pan. Mounting arrangement needs address, so this will all be done together.



    With all the concerns to address resolving fitment of seat-frame-taillight-frame, this seat may ultimately serve to be the pattern for the next seat. For now, it's good to have it in hand to use..






    Comment


    • #32
      Nice work Clint!.

      Comment


      • cliffrod
        cliffrod commented
        Editing a comment
        Thanks, Will. Feels good to be making some progress. See you soon.

    • #33
      Since the last post, I have deepened the relief/indent across the front of the seat. That is closing the wedge gap between the rear portion of the seat and frame near the blue tape. I'll probably deepen it some more. Hopefully more it rests on the frame, the less likely it will be to bend. This is also kicking up the rear of the seat to benefit license plate mount & tire clearance, which is very cool. I'm not averse to making a new seat if needed after all the issues are sorted with this one. We'll see.

      A quick pic of the taillight in the trimmed seat. Not mounted yet beyond duct tape and I'm playing with mounting depth. I want the CEV stamp and part numbers on the chromed trim to be visible & not hidden, but not wanting a surface mount look. I need to develop the lamp assembly to replace the original one using two little 6v barrel or bullet-ended bulbs. I'm looking at similar dimensioned off-the-shelf lamps that could be easily modified, bulb orientation and mounting configuration within the seat.



      Just because I like the older square-style license plate holder doesn't mean it fits particularly well. For now, I used a spare CEV assembly (probably from a Sprint) as a pattern. An oversized blank for the license plate holder was cut from the same scrap aluminum, with additional material welded to accommodate the lamp area. The center will be trimmed away to allow a deeper lamp with regular 1157 bulb or LED equivalent.







      Still have a long way to go with my welding. I should be practicing on larger coupons, with all known materials, probably have more tip sizes,.. Still, I'm trying to develop an ability to work on a real part when it matters. I've done the same with my studio tools. Doesn't matter if I can make nice samples. If they don't work and cannot be trusted when it counts, they're junk and I can be in deep trouble. In the very near future, I'll have to weld mounts into the seat hump and would prefer not to burn giant holes or have to make a large repair section... Gotta be able to do it right the first time.

      Making the license plate holder with a fender mount that is strong enough may require a different configuration than this design, no matter what I add for beading and edge detail. I know where these types of taillight/plate mounts typically flex and break, especially on four stroke singles. There will be more room & things will change when I cut away the rear frame loop (diagonally, at the blue tape), but I don't plan to cut the frame until the seat-fender-taillight detail is 100% resolved. Losing that factory rear fender mount as a reference point will be significant.

      Time is short for this bike fun for the near future. I have a couple of events to do, a stone to finish and trying to get a wheeled dolly fabricated for my Gairu so that can be moved into my shop asap. I would like to have the current taillight & related shaping stuff sorted by Nov 1 and will post what I can along the way.

      Comment


      • #34
        Good job Clifford.
        I have a 850 LM3 and will be doing something very similar in the near future.
        Problem is trying to find cheap front rotors for mine first.
        Cheers Reedy,

        There's nothing as Sweet as a EK V8

        Comment


        • cliffrod
          cliffrod commented
          Editing a comment
          Great to hear there's another Guzzi man here. I was going to make similar parts to kit my V7 Sport before this loop showed up dirt cheap, just because I have it & figured it would make the purists howl. I'm expecting to make at least a seat for a friend's Tonti-frame cafe build as my fluency improves. No leads on rotors but will keep you in mind.

      • #35
        Lately there's been no bike time, but made a little progress this afternoon. It was raining (after 50 days since rain..) and I didn't feel like juggling other projects around the wet stuff.

        The bike has been up here on the carport for a couple of weeks while I needed space for another project in my metal shop. The tank buck has been irritating me. Tried to get a good match of shape from various pics & the clay, decided it was good enough and then slammed it out to get it together for display at our late July bike rally. It still didn't look right, especially the interaction with the distributor, but I chalked that up to cutting approx 4" from the rear of the tank.

        Took a few minutes this afternoon and found the sans-fairing right side view picture I needed. Then I laid a straightedge along the bottom of the tank and pulled a string to match the location on the bike. The problem I had was that I had developed the tank clay & buck as orderly, specifically with the flat bottom of the tank being parallel to the lower frame rail. When the clay was shorter top to bottom while parallel, it didn't look right. When I fattened it up and made the wooden buck, it looked better but still not right. Finally realized the original basic utilitarian tank was not made & installed with a bottom parallel to lower frame rail. This was probably deliberate to make certain fuel tended to carry towards the petcocks near the back of the tank.

        The string clarified that I had the rear of the tank spot on correct and the bottom was flat. But the front needed approx 1 1/2" inches removed from the bottom. A little time on the bandsaw & big sander and it's looking much better.

        Side views of revised tank buck with string in place between top of rear shock and exposed fork spring-

        [img]https://i.ibb.co/R701s9h/image.jpg[/imp]



        I may replace some of the stations on the buck as I fair it, but happier with the overall shape and fit now. It's also easier to see the engine, which is always very cool...

        Comment


        • #36
          While y'all were watching some damn video over & over again today, I worked on my seat instead. In a perfect world, I would like this to serve as an example of what you can do when you put the effort into practicing what you preach instead of preaching what you should practice..... Don't get distracted by the distractions that will ALWAYS be around you. Stay focused upon the right things.

          Got a basic support for the taillight developed. Turned a flange around it & then welded it in place with the same torch and slightly better amateur efficiency. Blew one dime size hole (big lump to right of top center....) and then fixed it. I still need to fine tune it all, build an actual lamp housing, resolve the fender brace-license plate bracket, etc but it's closer to built & should look better to display next Saturday & Sunday as planned.

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          • #37
            we are still watching what you are doing, practice makes better
            thanks neil

            Comment


            • cliffrod
              cliffrod commented
              Editing a comment
              I knew I could count on you, Neil. maybe if I called my improved bad welds pudding (quote from WRay's reply to Chris) instead of bubble gum, I might sound more learned...?

              Too funny- tried to be funny but this iPad's autocorrect won't even let me type his name. it must be a sign.... Off to the shop,

          • #38
            My favorite new picture.. More to come.

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            • neilb
              neilb commented
              Editing a comment
              i like the look of the shape of the tank cliffy

          • #39
            Thanks for the likes and good comments. I'm pretty happy with the lines now. Still haven't fixed/finished the buck yet. I've been wide open on this stone -nearly finished, pics coming.

            I've decided that I'll make a new seat and fender. These have been great to have for practice, design and fitment resolution. My welding is improving. After the punishment these have endured, trying to perfect them now seems dumb. They'll look good on the wall.

            I've also continued studying pics of the original bikes. The rear fender has lots of Lancaster-style markings along the sides. The tanks are not particularly smooth like parts that have been wheeled, probably because Italian methods of the period would have been shaping by Maglio or hammer & stump and planishing over a surface plate. Close review of the pics seem to confirm this method. So I've surfaced a 9" X 12" X 2 1/4" thick steel that I've been saving for just such a purpose & will try to make the tank that way...

            Will try to get the build details updated in the next few days. Headed to show #1 now...

            Comment


            • #40
              Full update copy & paste from WIldGuzzi thread,,with a little repeat stuff because y'all get preview updates along the way..

              At this point, I've decided I will be making a new seat and rear fender after using the ones in hand for all fitment and experimentation. My welding is improving and there's no reason to try to make these pieces perfect. It will be faster to make good ones and hang these up as souvenirs.


              Saying I've wanted to build a bike around one of these CEV taillights for years isn't far from the truth. Among others, these lights came on Ducati 175 & 200 Elite models in the late 50's and very early 60's. imho, it's a perfect fit to incoprporate into a typical cafe racer seat. I had already trimmed off the back of my first seat, so now it was time to weld in a basic mounting platform.

              This lamp assembly uses two ancient 6v bullet-ended bulbs. I'm still sorting out the details about the lamp upgrade. Saw some similar sized LED bullet ended builds that might work or may just use a regular or LED 1157. Until I get all in place with fender, I'm waiting on developing the lamp interior.

              So I made a pattern to fit the hump, turned a simple flange to facilitate welding and welded it in place. Only blew one hole this time and then quickly fixed it.





              Looks ok on the bike. Should be able to center the next one even better.



              After the taillight was mounted, I started working on mounting and initial trimming of the rear fender. After studying enough pics, I understood the front mount was a pair of small L brackets that rivet to the fender. Before making them, I added a lateral bead across the leading end to both clear the frame cross member below the battery tray and to stiffen the fender. Not sure that it's necessary to have the fender this long, but it's easier to cut it off later than to add it...



              After bead was added (with simple hammer & stump/dolly work), the fender was marked and trimmed to length.





              The L brackets were pretty simple to make from 16g crs. After a pair were bent, I had to mark & drill holes to attach these via the two bolts at the rear of the battery tray.





              Transferring holes can be done with a cross made from two pieces of tape. At the intersection, the sticky sides face each other. Use one layer of tape to tape it to the piece with the hole. Mark the hole as you like. Place the part to receive the pattern in place. Use the other sticky face to attach the pattern to the receiving part & remove the tape from the original part. Make your hole.





              After that, I marked holes for the fender rivets before drilling the bracket & then the fender. For now, I'll use small bolts instead of rivets. Not sure if I'll make new brackets for the new fender.later or reuse these.



              With the front mounts done, I moved to the rear of the fender. Before trimming it to initial length, I wanted to add a narrow bead across the end. This will stiffen the fender and is similar to the bead found on the trailing edge of a V7 Sport fender. For this one, I simply freehand end a bead with a cross pein hammer using another cross pein hammer held in the vise as a dolly. It isn't perfect, but wasn't meant to be. It was fast & easy and looks good.





              After the bead was done, I marked the fender and trimmed it to length. I thought it looked good but Tip wasn't impressed.



              Test mounting the fender and seat on bike looked good, even with the frame loop intact.





              I left the fender slightly longer than the height of a handy license plate. The angle isn't very vertical, but should be manageable. Cannot really deal with this until the frame is cut because the frame is in the way.





              Now was time to add a vertical loop for mounting the seat & rear fender and to tie the frame together after the rear loop was cut. No handy channel in my scrap inventory. so I welded two equal lengths of 1/2" angle into a channel, made a pair of pie cuts at the bends & welded it up, fish-mouthed the ends to fit the frame, ground everything clean and welded it to the frame.



              Then made a couple of cuts and removed the rear frame loop.



              Now the seat and fender look much better-









              I did make it to both shows, including the nearby Tryon (NC) Rolling Art car, truck and bike show. I first displayed the bike here last year, so wanted to have some progress to show. Saw several old friends, made some new ones and had a great time.



              Yesterday and today, I had time to resolve the fork brace. The original Record bikes simply utilized a lower or rear font fender brace turned vertical and attached at the upper fender mounts via two small tab brackets. Very simple, probably not incredibly effective but that's what they did so that's what I'm doing. First I had to relieve the stamped end to clear the weld at the bottom of the fork slider.



              After removing two broken fender mounting bolts from the fork lowers, I made a quick pattern from card stock and transferred it to some handy 14? gauge crs. Ganged the pieces together to sand them to even shape, then drilled and countersunk holes.







              Some simple bending to match parts was followed by lots of trial fitting. Once all fit well, all was cleaned to prep for brazing. Brazed area was then cleaned, masked and spray painted black like the original Record bikes.





              Fits well and looks good- very cool...

              Comment


              • #41
                The last several weeks have been busy in studio, but shipped that job a week ago so I had a little time & $$$ to do bike stuff before the next stone arrives.

                I want to use Italian parts when I can. If not, I want to make parts that look Italian. I've had a crashed Ceriani 35mm top clamp or triple tree in the too-good-to-throw-away pile for years. I had plans to use the clamp portions from it as basis for headlight ears but decided on another path.

                Using card stock, I made a simple pattern for the ear.







                I transferred patterns to .125 thick 5000 series aluminum and cut them a little oversized, did some bending, welding, filing, sanding, etc and made a practice ear. This pic shows them bead blasted as I was trying to decide on the surface I wanted. In the end, I polished them.





                To attach these to the fork tubes and after studying some more, I settled upon the making clamps to mimic Dellorto carb clamps. Earlier ones, like on SS1 carbs, were aluminum and solid. Later ones, apparently around the time of the V7 Sport, are a folded piece of steel. I decided the folded design would be the best choice to weld to the ear. NOS Dellorto bolts & nuts were ordered. A pattern was made. Using a 35mm knockout punch, I punched two holes and drilled a third smaller hole between these holes. Folding them accurately is not too hard but I'm still working on doing it better to avoid stressing the bend. After everything was bent and trimmed for the nut & bolt, a slot was cut to make the clamp functional.

                love a knockout punch-



                The hole fits the hammered sportster fork tube perfectly- very cool.



                Now making the clamps-











                Not knowing how the welding would go, I made one clamp slightly wider than the other one.



                Today I went to town to restock welding supplies. Back at the shop, I decided to try welding everything together. Didn't get pics of the TIG welding and grinding, but my welding is getting better. I used a scrap 35mm sportster tube to align the clamps. Lots of trimming, then welding and more filing, grinding & polishing and I have a practice headlight ear.











                I still need to install this on my bike, mark & drill the hole to mount the headlight. I'm using the long headlight on this bike to help house any electrical components are needed. Need to make a few adjustments, but this ear will work well to develop a proper pattern.

                Between pending projects and the holidays, it will probably be awhile before much gets done. No matter- it feels good to make some progress.

                Comment


                • #42
                  progress is progress no matter how small
                  thanks neil

                  Comment


                  • #43
                    Did some work on the tank buck over the weekend. Finished one stone and had to do some model-related woodwork for the next one, so took advantage of being in the wood shop for a change.

                    not to knock all the guys using CAD, waterjet, etc- To me, hand made means hand made. It's all practice. I like the challenge to cut a dozen equally tight and accurate joints in one piece of wood. I also like the challenge to not waste any more $$ plywood than necessary.

                    When I made the buck using patterns pulled/lofted from the clay model, I pulled patterns for each side of the station location. Ideally, this would let me fair the stations closely before assembly so less work would be needed later. Like I said, it's all practice and practice is good for any craftsman. Some went a little past where I needed them to be and some ended up needing more work when I fixed the bottom profile as mentioned previously. Fixing the bottom also eliminated interference issues encountered with tank vs distributor. Some larger tanks have a large recess or false area to accommodate such things.

                    Last Aug at the Redneck Roundup, I carefully used Jim Hery's OMG monster bandsaw to cut spacers for the base to locate stations like I had done along the center spine. It's a very simple way to make a tight dado and theoretically keep everything equally aligned. After modifying the bottom plate, I had cut new blanks for the stations later in the fall. Since then, it's all been waiting for time.

                    Old buck stations along one side were removed. Pattern was transferred from each one to a new blank, with was then ganged to a partner with screws before being band sawed & belt sanded into general shape. This went quickly. Then each station was notched into the new base plate & cut to length. When all were done, spacers were added between the bases of each station. So far, just a single screw at each joint. They may be glued later. I still haven't unbolted the two halves (along the tank midline at top center) to add 1-2 screws to each station. Doing dadoes like this makes things so stable, I'm able to do al this work with stations simply well-fitted into those built-up dadoes. .

                    When all was together, I began fairing the buck stations. Some excess was easily sawed away with either bandsaw or my favorite cheap Japanese pull saw. The rest of the blending was done with a 4" 40 grit flap wheel on a side grinder. I like to cut, not to grind or sand things into shape. With plywood, sanding is the necessary method. The ends of the stations are largely resolved. Here's the buck now, beside the removed stations and bottoms.


                    >



                    The stations are still a little tight in the tunnel area and don't fit as well over the frame mounting bushings I made. I also need to to blend the bottom inner corners when I have them removed. To resolve the tight tunnel, I can either remove each station or unbolt the halves to rework things as needed. Baffles, foam and decreasing tank volume are all being considered. Foam would be the easiest, but wonder about longevity and what it will do to carbs & beyond if and when it deteriorates. Input is welcome....

                    >


                    >

                    Aside from the glue in the plywood gumming up the sanding program, the top along center and bottom outer corners were all fairly quick and easy to blend or fair. I still need to fair the sides but ran out of shop time.

                    >

                    There's additonal shaping to do beyond fairing the sides. Still, the reworked buck looks good on the bike.

                    >


                    >

                    Building up a buck like this with spacers used to create dadoes for the stations is a very simple approach to doing a buck by hand. Computer modeled and waterjetted plywood parts are a more-guaranteed perfect fit, but not something most folks can do 100% in-house with few tools. At some point, my homemade & hand made buck can be fully glued together and be super solid.

                    More to come, hopefully lots more before endlessly mowing grass around this place takes over for months on end..

                    Comment


                    • #44
                      Nice work Cliffy!

                      I find there is a lot of satisfaction in mixing woodwork with metalwork.

                      For myself, I don't think there would be any joy in receiving a buck in the post, that a machine had made for me.

                      Good to see the progress on the bike,

                      Cheers Charlie

                      Comment


                      • cliffrod
                        cliffrod commented
                        Editing a comment
                        Thanks, Charlie. I'm fine with different strokes for different folks- CAD just isn't what I want to do. I can't compete with the numeric accuracy that CAD and sophisticated modern equipment can facilitate. For projects like I do, it's not absolutely necessary. I'm excited by what is humanly possible with simple tools, two hands and practice. Making the physical shape helps me understand the goal better.

                        I've been shaping wood longer than anything else. I love the way this plywood colors as it ages. Sure looks good as it goes from like yellow to all deep straw & honey.

                    • #45
                      Had time to make lots of wood dust lately, sanding these buck stations into better agreement.



                      The original tanks were likely very spontaneous, just made to hold enough fuel and fit the bike & rider as needed. No patterns or buck, just quick,work. This tank I'm building is deliberately trying to mimic that tank, so is a little more forced and determinant. Kinda like a trained artist trying to do child art. So I'm working from both the original pics and taking some guidance from other tanks. As noted before, this tank is smaller than the originals so that also changes things.

                      The method of building this buck in halves, from the tank centerline outward, makes it very simple to develop the tunnel detail. Installed on bike at this point, it was too narrow and tight with these new stations. Remove 5 bolts, which secure in the opposite half with t-nuts, and all is readily accessed and modified as needed.





                      Once the tunnel fit was resolved, I needed to add and develop the solid wood front corners of the tank. This buck isn't a hammerform so plain soft white wood 2x lumber is used for the corners. For the front, I needed to glue up thicker pieces. Once ready, contact sides were sanded to better fit the buck.



                      The approx profile patterns is marked on two sides in pencil.





                      Band saw is used to rough in corner along these profile patterns.



                      The outer corner blank is still very heavy. I like power tools and could tilt the table on the bandsaw to trim here, but things go right or wrong more quickly with some cuts & methods. Just like stone, little pieces are little mistakes. So, once again I used my favorite cheap Irwin Japanese-style pull saw to go slower and carefully knock off these corners.







                      The corners were screwed into place, before sanding finished the corners.





                      With all in place and well-sanded, the stations are faired very well. It's easy to see the flow of the tank contours.





                      At this point, I think this buck is finally finished. All needed now is to add a few light coats of polyurethane, both to protect the wood and keep it clean during the use when metalshaping. No big deal in terms of function but I want it to be clean.

                      I would like to start on the metal work for the tank very soon, but doubt that will happen. I need more practice and prefer to do that on smaller items. I still need to address 1. the filler neck spigot for the cap I have yet to restore, 2. the petcock bungs and most importantly 3. proper baffles for this tank. Even if I further reduce tank capacity, baffles should be worth the effort.

                      Next small project will be mocking up the cable mounts to guide development and fabrication of headlight ears and tachometer mount.

                      Comment

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