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  • Pumping method...🧐

    Click image for larger version  Name:	D35ACE4F-3070-40C9-A910-8D6D2790CB89.png Views:	0 Size:	377.5 KB ID:	3706 Hi Gents, As you might be aware I have just completed making a new steel roof for Porsche 964... this panel had quite a pronounced radius on it ... With numbers 16 and 17 full sweeps used.
    Although we achieved the job and the client was very happy.....
    Would like to know if there’s any other more modern methods of raising a large panel quicker.....? I used the 2 box method , tight tracking patterns , and A bit of blocking on the front edge .... Plus a very small amount of shrinking.... also need to get some Thumb nail dies.

    on YouTube recently I come across a video from Mark Gerisch ( Think he trained in the UK ? )where he uses the pumping method to raise a panel quickly....

    Does Peter or any of the team know if this method..... or is it like the Flexible shape pattern.... ( sorry for swearingπŸ˜‰).

    many thanks Matt.
    Last edited by Moving molecules .; 20-06-20, 02:44 PM.
    https://www.precisionpanelcraft.co.uk/

  • #2
    I think you'll find Peter does everything possible just short of flipping the wheel over, including pumping a panel.... He treats the English wheel like it's an employee.

    30+ yrs ago, Mark was my original inspiration to have a cast iron English Wheel and do some manner of Metalshaping. Between then and taking Peter's class just prior to the arrival of my own cast iron English Wheel from Peter, I had watched numerous videos. All seemed very placid, laid back and somewhat irrational in terms of income-oriented work vs a classroom or teaching environment. Most of the time, I have found that working craftsmen leverage (no pun intended) every bit of utility from the tool being used or the tool at hand. They don't just use the tool and wait for good results to appear on their own accord. Some heavy-handed people wreck tools. the better ones simply use them to their fullest potential.

    Seeing Peter pump a panel made more complete sense to me, just like watching him tip a line with the wheel. Both were about using the tools at hand more effectively. He also made clear we understood that we needed to stay off the edges if we wanted a faster/taller crown. Otherwise, we would be letting the shape out wherever we stretched the edge.

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    • #3
      Good video.

      I was going to comment on the footwork of Mark's helper, which was all over the place for a while, but Mark sorted it.

      Maybe he should have watched Peter's video first,

      Cheers Charlie

      Comment


      • #4
        i think i'm right in saying the ''pumping method'' is just a phrase invented for those that don't usually shape that way

        i have watched peter on the wheel and other old school panel beaters and they all use the same method, the wheel is just that a wheel, the shapes it creates are put in by the operator. knowing where to wheel, when to pull up or pull down is all down to the operator
        thanks neil

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        • #5
          I watched that video a while ago,and the only thing that I personally would have NOT done was to keep the panel close while wheeling it, if you watch it properly, Mark tells the helper to keep his arms together .. well... that is not wrong BUT! That makes the job much harder, simply because by closing the panel like they did one creates a TUBE LIKE PANEL and it's harder to put shape in it , if the panel was kept open .. then it would have been easier to shape. if you look at the video again you will note that the panel in question was bucking like a wild horse on the edges while they where wheeling it and putting unnecessary lines on to it , which would not have happened if the panel was kept open . And more importantly it would have taken less time to wheel it .
          Peter T.
          Last edited by Peter Tommasini; 21-06-20, 03:26 AM.

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          • #6
            I am glad you have commented Peter, because I couldn't understand why they were squeezing the edges in.

            Can you clarify the following for me?

            "Closed" panel – does that mean keeping it tubular?
            "Open panel" – in this case, does that mean wheel almost to the edges and no hand pressure on the panel?

            Cheers Charlie

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Chazza View Post
              I am glad you have commented Peter, because I couldn't understand why they were squeezing the edges in.

              Can you clarify the following for me?

              "Closed" panel – does that mean keeping it tubular?
              "Open panel" – in this case, does that mean wheel almost to the edges and no hand pressure on the panel?

              Cheers Charlie
              Charlie
              Close or open means...... when wheeling a bulbous shape you MUST! keep your arms wide open and parallel with the helper .... to the point that your shoulders hurts by keeping the panel (open ) you will find that the edges are facing down, therefore one can use a lower crown anvil , this also will allow you to pull down slightly.
              If the panel is kept close... then the panel will remain straight like a TUBE... meaning if you pull down you can put lines into the panel , and you will not know how much shape is going in to the panel each pass until the panel is opened on the floor, (just like the video shows) . More to the point the panel should remain the shape intended when placed on to the floor, without having to push it down ( like on the video )
              Peter T.
              Last edited by Peter Tommasini; 21-06-20, 04:13 AM.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Peter Tommasini View Post

                Charlie
                Close or open means...... when wheeling a bulbous shape you MUST! keep your arms wide open and parallel with the helper .... to the point that your shoulders hurts by keeping the panel (open ) you will find that the edges are facing down, therefore one can use a lower crown anvil , this also will allow you to pull down slightly.
                If the panel is kept close... then the panel will remain straight like a TUBE... meaning if you pull down you can put lines into the panel , and you will not know how much shape is going in to the panel each pass until the panel is opened on the floor, (just like the video shows) . More to the point the panel should remain the shape intended when placed on to the floor, without having to push it down ( like on the video )
                Peter T.
                Thank God .... I think I did it right....
                I used Full radius Anvils ..... And used the lowest crown wheels I can get away with without making lines.... but luckily in our set we had the same low crown Anvil .... But somebody has been there before us and has turned the edges down...πŸ˜ŽπŸ‘
                like Petes wheels.

                The hardest thing for me was getting the pressure right because I’m still getting used to this cast iron wheeling machine.... And did not want to over gun the panel and ruin it for the sake of time..... It’s one thing making a panel for yourself but to make a panel for a modern Instagram,r with 56k followers is a bit more pressure.

                As for the pumping method I’m not entirely convinced..... Yes I think it’s important as a user to dictate where you want to put the shape...... But I think there is a fine line between bullying the panel and the overall finish.
                This is the art and personal touch the top guys are famous for...
                Last edited by Moving molecules .; 21-06-20, 12:34 PM.
                https://www.precisionpanelcraft.co.uk/

                Comment


                • #9
                  🀣🀣🀣🀣 Pete ...As a Extremely skilled craftsmen .... I bet you find it all very frustrating trying to put your thoughts on paper..... please bear with us.

                  please gentleman take some time and watch his videos and attend his classes.

                  we lov em....... now how was it..... Little bit longer..... little bit longer.....🀣🀣🀣🀣 THE BEST.... .

                  you cannot write a book about this stuff,
                  Last edited by Moving molecules .; 21-06-20, 12:37 PM.
                  https://www.precisionpanelcraft.co.uk/

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                  • #10
                    I personally found that video quite difficult to watch. Looks like they were both fighting it the whole time. The guys I've watched (Peter included) never seem to be wrestling with a panel. It's a nice gentle dance between two consenting adults.
                    Cheers, Richard

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                    • #11
                      Yes it did look like Mark was quite upset with his tailman pushing him through the process.
                      https://www.precisionpanelcraft.co.uk/

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                      • #12
                        What l have learned from this process is the art of keeping a panel in a open state and then close to create the form you are looking for.

                        For years l have kind of known this but is more relevant now we are making bigger panels.

                        and to concentrate on the hardest bit of the Panel first..... then sort out the Easier Low crown parts and Hollow,s etc.

                        cheers Matt B. πŸ‡¬πŸ‡§
                        https://www.precisionpanelcraft.co.uk/

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Click image for larger version  Name:	4E08B0DA-4C0F-4F9C-AEDD-7D4F19094E77.jpeg Views:	0 Size:	2.37 MB ID:	3894Click image for larger version  Name:	1F87A3E5-F7DD-44C3-8277-7EBCDFC44B30.jpeg Views:	0 Size:	2.12 MB ID:	3893

                          Any how after watching that frustrating video i’m trying to work out how the pumping method works..... by moving molecules 🀣

                          The way I think about it is ....if you push the sheet metal together with your hands, you are quite simply bending the metal.....Yes

                          Now by doing so you are microscopically changing the surface area of the Top surface of the metal ( making it longer ) and on the bottom surface ( making it shorter ) ....Yes

                          So when you push your curved sheet of metal through the English Wheel You are affectively Pinching the steel together ...

                          microscopically Trapping the longer TOP surface of the steel in place....

                          making the panel rise quicker when sheet has relaxed.

                          The only trouble I see with this if you would need a higher Crown anvil say a number 3 Which potentially with a narrower pinch point would put thinner track lines.....πŸ™ in your panel.

                          what are your thoughts on this.

                          am I making sense.

                          cheers Matt.

                          PS: l did our Roof panel slowly with a Full radius No.1 anvil.

                          but would like to practice on some scrap steel.
                          Attached Files
                          Last edited by Moving molecules .; 27-07-20, 07:09 AM.
                          https://www.precisionpanelcraft.co.uk/

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                          • #14
                            my understanding of it is, as you pull down and out with the sheet, the steel gets trapped between the top wheel and lower anvil and it stretches the steel just like pizza dough, it will put shape in as the last object it leaves is the lower anvil which has shape. lifting up and pulling out will have a simillar effect but the last object it leaves is the upper wheel which is flat but stretches just like pizza dough.

                            i can remember peter telling me after he saw the first 1/4 panel i made ''try it this way, all along the panel and wrap the panel around the anvil'' that means pull down hard and all along the panel and really stretch that metal. stretching the top part (transition to the roof) makes it longer so it flows along the curve, it has a twist to it so that has to be put in by the operator as the panel doesn't know it needs to twist or how much
                            thanks neil

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                            • #15
                              I just remember the same discussion was made on another forum about the method used in making the cobra bonnet, here is my quote on that Forum on the subject, and one of the answer from a well know metalworker in England
                              .................................................. .......................................
                              QUOTE=Peter Tommasini;98516][QUOTE=
                              It also seems that by pushing the panel in like that makes for unstable wheeling conditions which resulted in the skewed potato chip look.

                              I could be wrong...but...
                              Is my belive that the ''potato chip'' is corsed by too much pressure too quick and too soon on a NOT !.... Pre wheeled panel with light pressure first, this can also happend when starting from the middle with load of pressure
                              Peter[/QUOTE]
                              .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..............

                              I agree with you Peter. I guess you 'set' the panel before wheeling so that it holds it shape, thats what I do . The other problem with putting so much shape in one area while not wheeling another is that the top wheel can dig into the panel leaving marks on the surface.

                              The student helper needed a lot more instruction on where to stand, what to do with his feet and how to hold the panel. not much wonder he was running around like a headless chicken, poor guy.
                              David
                              __________________
                              Metalshaping DVD. www.metalshapingzone.com
                              Metalshaping with hand tools on youtube
                              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGElSHzm0q8

                              All things are possible.
                              Last edited by Peter Tommasini; 27-07-20, 01:28 PM.

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