Curve on in and out direction mostly?????

[Bearwen]

Hello ALL,
I posted similar question some time ago and there were answers but nothing cleared it upfor me.

So i had another go at the wheel today and no matter what profile anvil or the amount of pressure used the panel wants to shape mostly curving on the in and out direction very little if any on the side to side or across the lower anvil in the direction that is parallel with the shaft of the anvil.

I tried short pieces long pieces supported long pieces and unsupported long pieces and I tried different levels of pressure and every single time i get most if not only curve in the panel on the in and out direction and not across the lower anvils desired radius.

What am I doing wrong is is that normal from all the videos I have watched I dont believe its normal.

I am going to check in the morning to make sure the anvils when pushed together are not offset and tip the panel.
Thats the only thing I can think of as to why I get little to no curve across the lower anvils cut radius and get lots of curve on the in and out direction.


Pleas let me know what I can check or what is the issue.

I am using a Harbour fright English wheel I am not expecting it to be amazing but at least good enough to learn the basics and desired if I want to spend money to buy a better wheel.

Thank You

Berry

[skintkarter]

Pictures please Berry

[Moving molecules .]

Hi Berry, Peter Tommasini has a very informative UTUBE videoclip of the so-called Flat Anvils vs Full radius Anvils..... Only somebody with years of experience can put out a video like this....

Thank you Peter .

Also If you are Wheeling steel it Might (might) be harder on a cheaper Wheeling machine because of less Top pressure ?..... BUT shouldn’t use lots of pressure anyway!!!!

When I have used cheap machine,s you mostly experience poor run-out from the Wheels so when you are wheeling Aluminum the panel will look all uneven.
NOT good., also the Yoke wobbling can make tracking difficult.

Wheeling is one of these procedures were were working on Poor machine,s can be frustrating.... Sorry no disrespect wheeling machines are very expensive.

So I would recommend seeking someone like Peter/ Neil or other fellow forum members to use there Wheeling machine..... Using the best Wheel will bring out the best in YOU.

it’s a bit like when you first use a Auto darkening Welding helmet..... WOW.

but I would say I am more experienced now Because l used to use a fixed Shaded Welding helmet 20 odd years ago.

I’m sure if you tweak your machine it will Work just fine.... But you really need somebody to look at it to tell you if there are any faults.😉

We all need to make mistakes to progress.👍👍👍.

[Moving molecules .]

I think if you Watch Petes videos you will observe that he uses his arms and body too dictate were he wants the shape....

Also biggest thing I have learnt from Peter is keeping a panel OPEN to Wheel..... then close panel to form the desired shape.....

hope I’ve said this right Peter.

👍😉😎

[Moving molecules .]

[Bearwen]

thanks for the replies.

I am using full radius anvils and I am willing 3003 aluminum.

I have watched the videos you guys posted several times.

Correct me if I am wrong but when your wheeling a panel most of the shape should be side to side in the shape of the lower anvils machined radius correct?

Not on the in and out feed direction.

my panels come out looking like a motorcycle fender a little shape across the lower anvils machined radius and ALOT of curve on the in and out feed direction.
This happens no matter if I support the panel dont support the panel use no or very low pressure or use a stiffer pressure.
The only thing that changes with different pressures and support is the quickness as to how fast the panel forms.

[Chris_Hamilton]

Correct me if I am wrong but when your wheeling a panel most of the shape should be side to side in the shape of the lower anvils machined radius correct?

Not on the in and out feed direction.

You've got it backwards. Majority of the shape will come in the feed direction. The curve of the anvil is so that it fits properly to the panel. Not for developing more curve. You want to start with a almost flat anvil and work up from there. As your panel develops more shape you switch to an anvil that better matches that shape. You can help the shape along in the side to side by doing what is called "pumping". Where you are pressing down side to side as you are feeding in and out. Remember too that if the panel has a lot of shape blocking and shrinking are going to be required along with the wheel.

[cliffrod]

Berry, are you practiced with the Shape In Shape Out exercise? It's what I do to help my wheeling proficiency, especially after any break between metal projects.

[Bearwen]

Shape in shape out exercise?
I have heard this mentioned on other forums but never any information as in a video or description of how you do it.

I read on a different forum about taking a blank and leaving a border of 1 inch on all sides and wheel up to but not past the border.
I did this today with 3 blanks and 3 different lower anvils and I have shape in both directions now pretty evenly perhaps maybe a little more on the in and out direction but not like it was.

I am guessing that I was going to close to the edge of the panel and it was letting the shape out ( this is what I read on another forum) so I had alot of shape in one direction and very little in the other.

So most of the shape is suppose to be in the in and out direction of the panel and not across the lower wheels machined radius?

I really thought it was the other way around.

I just watched the Peter video on flats vs full radius I have full radius anvils and the part where he talks about the feeler gauge and then does a quick demo I noticed he gets shape in both directions and the in and out is a little more than the side to side so I get it now I guess I just never noticed it with all the shape in the panels in videos it always seemed like the shape was opposite from what is actually happening.

I also noticed in his video that my machine even though I beefed it up has a LOT of flex compared to his so i will address that this next weekend hopefully.

Thanks again for the replies now maybe I can get this thing figured out and make some panels instead of welding practice pieces.

[Moving molecules .]

Progress.....😉
Shape in Shape it’s not the latest exercise routine....🤣
I believe it was taught by Aston Martin for the youngsters.
Each morning they had to take a foot square of metal and create certain amount a crown..... Shape in.

then they would have to Wheel the panel Flat as they could.... Shape out.

[Peter Tommasini]

Berry ....
Use little pressure and start with a lower crown anvils, then work your way up the crowns and keep practicing, watch me wheeling on my you tube video's , and you will start to get the idea. Work on your machine a little, so it does not move all over the place , .....you will be OK
REMEMBER !!!! Practice make's perfect ! Do not give up !
Peter T.

[cliffrod]

Shape in shape out exercise?
I have heard this mentioned on other forums but never any information as in a video or description of how you do it.

I read on a different forum about taking a blank and leaving a border of 1 inch on all sides and wheel up to but not past the border.
I did this today with 3 blanks and 3 different lower anvils and I have shape in both directions now pretty evenly perhaps maybe a little more on the in and out direction but not like it was.

I am guessing that I was going to close to the edge of the panel and it was letting the shape out ( this is what I read on another forum) so I had alot of shape in one direction and very little in the other.

So most of the shape is suppose to be in the in and out direction of the panel and not across the lower wheels machined radius?

I really thought it was the other way around.

I just watched the Peter video on flats vs full radius I have full radius anvils and the part where he talks about the feeler gauge and then does a quick demo I noticed he gets shape in both directions and the in and out is a little more than the side to side so I get it now I guess I just never noticed it with all the shape in the panels in videos it always seemed like the shape was opposite from what is actually happening.

I also noticed in his video that my machine even though I beefed it up has a LOT of flex compared to his so i will address that this next weekend hopefully.

Thanks again for the replies now maybe I can get this thing figured out and make some panels instead of welding practice pieces.

Peter had us do this exercise at the beginning of his wheeling class. It was a big help for me to understand both cause & effect and deliberate control over what I'm producing. Tracking (the lines of contact on the metal) is a big deal that a lot of new people miss. Watch an expert and they will produce barely visible (meaning low pressure) tracking lines that are parallel and very evenly spaced, if not touching. No zig zag fast work- just slow, boring methodical practice. Practicing this discipline during the shape in shape out exercise helps a student like me avoid making an unorganized tangle of tracking lines and an equally unorganized shape.

[abarthdave]

Berry ....
Use little pressure and start with a lower crown anvils, then work your way up the crowns and keep practicing, watch me wheeling on my you tube video's , and you will start to get the idea. Work on your machine a little, so it does not move all over the place , .....you will be OK
REMEMBER !!!! Practice make's perfect ! Do not give up !
Peter T.

Peter when you are doing some videos , can you do a Shape In Shape Out video ?

[neilb]

I am using a Harbour fright English wheel I am not expecting it to be amazing but at least good enough to learn the basics and desired if I want to spend money to buy a better wheel.

Thank You

Berry

Berry, i too have a [email protected] wheel. i have trued up my lower anvils (the best i can) on my lathe but have a very good upper wheel, i have added some strength to it, but I KNOW it needs replacing with one of peter's cast wheels.

i have learned how how produce panels with this shody wheel, but it wheels up slower than a cast frame. there is only a small ''window of opportunity'' i call it where shape happens on the adjusting screw. you will get shape in both directions as the lower anvil has shape in both directions. pulling down as you wheel out will help to put more shape in (along the panels length)

[Peter Tommasini]

Peter when you are doing some videos , can you do a Shape In Shape Out video ?

Yea..... I can do that next time we film , it will help who is new to the trade a lot
Peter T.