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  • #16
    Here is a link of a guy who built a jig for the 240Z plus some PDFs

    http://www.vord.net/cars/240z/chassis-jig.htm

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    • #17
      Click image for larger version  Name:	A32A1212-7F3B-4E7C-A21F-E2024F697CFF.jpeg Views:	0 Size:	2.70 MB ID:	4522 Click image for larger version  Name:	2D84515D-E0AA-4A79-ACD7-3D0B00679945.jpeg Views:	0 Size:	2.72 MB ID:	4521 Much better put then me .... I struggle to spell....and write that much.

      The Old Morris Minor Plumbbob method....👍😉😎
      Last edited by Moving molecules .; 02-11-20, 08:08 AM.
      https://www.precisionpanelcraft.co.uk/

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      • #18
        different versions of the above mentioned compasses for measuring that I have and use in studio-

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        the beam compasses (or calipers) are made from a strip of plywood and the diagonally split end of a worn out (rounded corners) carpenter's square which is attached to the beam with a carriage bolt and wing nut. Tips are most effective when curved and very sharp. Easy to configure these beam calipers with tips oriented as desired and even bolt a pair of beams together to capture very long dimensions. Beam compasses also have the ability to reach deep to clear obstacles, vs the traditional iron Italian compasses (top pic on right) that have a very shallow depth capacity when opened to full width. Iron caliper hinges also loosen and deteriorate if opened super wide all the time. Not cool. Iron compasses are better to use with a triangle for calculating enlargement or reduction.

        If you may be capturing different measurements at the same time, it's wise to have very distinct variations in compasses. I use 3 dimensions for each point when pointing & carving with compasses, so have three different styles- iron, straight beam and stepped beam- to allow me to use three pairs with less chance of confusion. Beam compasses are cheap, simple tools for capturing and comparing dimensions. Well worth making a few to have on hand, even if never used for anything more complicated than singular measurement.

        One more good thing about compasses- it's straightforward to use them to transfer measurements in a different sequence to produce an accurate mirror image of the original.

        Antique methods using the plumb bob include the Falconet (square) and Canova (radial) method. both use an established plane atop the model and work to eliminate the need for a base reference. The Canova method was used to carve Mount Rushmore, with model measurements captured and enlarged by the sculptor before being radioed up to workers on the mountain face for production-

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        More complicated (in my opinion, after having used such methods to cut stones) is a more modern measuring frame- This pic shows the enlargement of model before likely foundry work.

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        The common trait is all base all work upon an arbitrary but unchanging craftsman-defined datum line or plane that suits the model and job. Completely portable, cheap and accurate in a wide range of applications. Hard to beat the old ways, even when they are adapted to modern applications.

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        • #19
          Click image for larger version  Name:	6751D86F-5AD0-4349-9E21-30C49575E6D1.png Views:	0 Size:	369.6 KB ID:	4530 Bloody Hell Cliff , you,ve just giving me a month of Homework....👍🤣

          Falconet ..... A small cannon

          cannot find any information about the Falconet system.?

          enlighten me Cliff, But try to keep it simple I hit metal for Iiving .😉

          Last edited by Moving molecules .; 02-11-20, 10:07 PM.
          https://www.precisionpanelcraft.co.uk/

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          • #20
            Don't worry- I beat on stone all day... These methods were developed so that an illiterate and unschooled but accurate and diligent low skill $ laborer could do the bulk removal work for a higher skill $$$$ sculptor could then finalize the job. My cousin that taught me was not highly schooled. He had no understanding about the complex mathematics and geometry he was performing when he used these various methods. It blew me away to learn these methods..

            When I was doing a small statue of Mary as an apprentice, one of my Masters (Angelo) had me use a method he derived from the Falconet Method. It was similar to this-

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            I brought the book I had to work (pics in previous post) which shows the now labeled Falconet and Canova Systems. Another one of my Masters (Giuliano) quickly labeled the images for me to correct the incorrect publisher's captions. basically, a framework with 90 degree corners is established above the model and a corresponding framework above the job. Then a plumb line is dropped, with horizontal measurement taken from model from the bottom of the plumb. This plumb line is then transferred to the job framework into the same corresponding location. Material is then either removed or added until the measurement is reproduced. If it's 1:1 reproduction (model dimension=job dimension) the measurements are simply taken and then applied. If it's a scaled job (model is larger or smaller than job) then the job measurement is mathematically calculated using the model measurement. Because plumb bobs are notoriously simple to disturb, using a measuring frame like the post in this pic with hard vertical (plumb) and horizontal measuring implements is easier. Still not as efficient as a pointing machine for 1:1 but it's one method to do it.



            Now, for something that I think is very relevant to your Ferrari project. This is how I would do it. Don't overthink it, just try to follow it. Think later after you can do it, which is basically the method of apprenticeship...

            When working between scale (model and job are not 1:1 the same size) we have to mathematically calculate the needed measurement/value (job) from the value in hand (model). Instead of using complicated and endless mathematical calculations, we use two compasses and the function of the apex angle of an isosceles triangle. It is the common method for work of up to 2X the original value Once a triangle is constructed/drawn, you can calculate an infinite number of 100% accurate values without ever using numbers. This means you could use a quality photograph, take a measurement for placement of your lamps, use a triangle to calculate that dimension for the job and place it precisely. No guesswork, endlessly enlarging photocopies and figuring out what the pixels are or aren't, etc. This function is the mathematical basis of how a computer program calculates a one such value from another. It's amazing.

            I've been promising to write/video this information for a long time but still haven't. If you're interested, I'll work on it to post a description that's both viable and as brief as possible. I've got a few drawings somewhere, but my pen & paper drawings don't photograph well and I don't use CAD or know how to draw things on a computer. People claim this is a "lost art" in the USA in order to sell expensive classes taught by an imported (aka more exotic & romantic than someone like me) European sculptor. that's garbage. These old ways pay my bill
            Attached Files

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            • #21
              Don't think too much right now. Just look over these diagrams-

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              To make your triangle,

              1. mark a point to be the apex point.
              2. draw a pair of parallel lines, each an equal distance from the apex point. The distance between these two lines needs to be the accurate desired value of the job dimension, Job dimension should be less than 2x the model dimension.
              3. Using a compass, swing a compass set to the known value of same model dimension. One point needs to be placed in this apex point. Swing is across each parallel line, noting the intersection.
              4. Connect the apex point to each swipe intersection (legs, model dimension) and each swipe intersection to each other (base, model dimension)

              For every dimension taken, the same procedure will be followed. A compass will capture a measurement from the model. It will be transferred to the triangle, placed in the apex point and swung to mark each leg. The distance between the intersections on each leg will be captured with another compass. This is the calculate job dimension.

              If Apex angle is greater than 60 degrees, the (actual or calculated) job dimension will always be less than the model, If apex angle is greater than 60 degrees, the job dimension will always be greater than the model dimension. If base and legs are the same length, the model and job dimensions will be the same.

              Most of the time, when building the triangle the base will be the largest job dimension (such as the desired height of the statue) which is easily established. It doesn't have to be, because the apex angle is all that's needed. legs can be extended to accommodate larger dimensions. Enlargement is best done at no more than 2X at a time to limit discrepancies. A pair of compasses and triangle like this is a very powerful calculator and essentially as fast as any computer or electronic calculator.

              If you simply do what I've described so far without thinking about it, it will work fine. You can employ this on 2D or 3D projects.


              Now for the more complicated part. Read on if you like....

              For your Ferrari- if you have any square frontal photographs, you can measure dimensions on the photograph with SHARP dividers/compass. These can be enlarged them reasonably well with a triangle, much more accurately than the dividers-ruler-pencil&paper (or calculator) method.


              Of all the triangles, the acute isosceles is the most powerful because it has a function between 0% and 100%. That means if you construct your triangle backwards and work backwards, you can manipulate any value. Use the desired job value for the legs and use known model value for the base. But this is more like the right triangle method (similar but different) where you have to apply the model dimension to the triangle in parallel to the base and square to the centerline. Using a sliding T-square along the center line, apply the model compass until it hits/intersects each leg equally. Mark the intersection. Capture the intersection-to-apex dimension with another compass. It should be the same when checked on each leg. Apply this compass to the job. Repeat until finished.

              this makes more sense to do a lot of measurement calculations- like the lofting of a full vehicle profile from promotional or road test articles that often have very nice square side view, front view and even overhead view photographs- than to do a small job like the Ferrari lamps. No matter, it still works and is at least as accurate, faster and economical than most methods. If it's already in a computer file that you have and trust, I understand. This is a way to do it yourself with very little information beyond photographs. You will need a specific triangle for each photograph used, but that should provide proof to check your work. This method is a simple way for someone to develop basic patterns a smaller version of a favorite car, like the pedal cars some build as hobby substitutes for the real thing.

              For the Ferrari, you know the diameter of the lamp lens you plan to use, right? That is your known job dimension. Measure the same diameter on a proper photograph for the model dimension. Use these to build your triangle(s) and go to work.

              After you've figured this out and still want more, I can try to explain how we use a triangle and three pairs of compasses simultaneous to point a statue by using the intersection of three different radii- three captured measurements from the model, each enlarged using the triangle, then captured and applied to the job until they also intersect, repeat, repeat, repeat until the statue is done. Swinging the calipers for a few months to carve a big 7' tall statue is quite a way to earn a living.

              All of this would probably be lots more interesting if my name was Giuliano or Antonio and I had a thick Italian accent... Not so much when I'm just a plain American white guy named Clint....
              Attached Files
              Last edited by cliffrod; 03-11-20, 02:50 AM.

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              • #22
                I will have to read this later....Cliff l said Simple.....🤣🤣
                https://www.precisionpanelcraft.co.uk/

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Moving molecules . View Post
                  I will have to read this later....Cliff l said Simple.....🤣🤣
                  One of my chefs used to swear at me and then say "I'm not paying you to think. Just do what I say. You can think when I'm not paying you!"

                  The Triangle method, simplified. just study and follow these diagrams. Think about it later...

                  Construct your triangle-

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                  Use it the normal way. It only takes seconds to produce/calculate the needed dimension.


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                  Or use it with values inverted for special use of enlargement by any factor, from 0% (nothing) to 100% (everything) not just one that's between 0% and 200%. Slightly slower and analogous to the right triangle method but still very fast.

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                  These 3 pics should eliminate at least 3000 words....?

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                  • #24
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ID:	4543 Cliff , i’m sitting in a very dark room trying to understand all this .... and and some of it I get and some of it I don’t ..... and some of it could be very helpful .
                    A few years ago I was blown away by a company called The Guild in the US who scaled a car from 3 old photos , The car in question it is a Bugatti Aerolifte ....
                    but l still don’t know how it’s done The old fashion way ..... maybe they used a computer ???, thank you for taking the time to do this.
                    Are there any books on this scale system.
                    https://www.precisionpanelcraft.co.uk/

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                    • neilb
                      neilb commented
                      Editing a comment
                      i saw that too, i can remember watching a guy tig welding some magnesium headlamp buckets. it was good to watch

                  • #25
                    Very useful sketches there Cliffy. Too bad my drawing board is 150km away; I must have a go at this on a piece of paper.

                    Thank you for posting,

                    Cheers Charlie

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                    • #26
                      Going back to school for me ... on Utube looking up about triangles???
                      names , angles etc Always add up to 180 degrees ✅
                      There’s a possibility l use some of these methods without giving it much thought.🤔
                      https://www.precisionpanelcraft.co.uk/

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                      • #27
                        Matt, I'll be bold and say I doubt you'll find much online if anything or even in books about this method. Old trade secret, need to know kind of stuff guarded by unions and guilds. Knowledge is money and lack of knowledge sharing limits threats from competition. My Masters had no books and knew of no books for me to reference. I've done this work full-time for 20 yrs and not found any such documentation. It's all oral tradition, word of mouth. The reluctance I have about sharing it now, in terms of my work, is that nobody professional in the USA gives a damn about doing it the old fashioned (hard) way but people in other places a still do... Not cool. People keep this secret. They don't share it for free. a workshop for artists (that will never use it, just brag about knowing how) to learn this method is commonly $750-$1000 per person, not kidding. guess I'll have to trust each of y'all for it....

                        The triangle and compasses used like this ARE the original computer. The mathematical function of the apex angle of the triangle (legs value vs base value) IS the formula programmed into the computer to enable said modern computer to calculate one value- model or job- when the other value is entered. Doesn't matter if they are scanning in points to create a cloud (?) to then enlarge/reduce or simply typing in one value to get another. this apex angle function is the basis of that computer code, but those experts don't know such things. They just know that the computer does it for them because they don;t know how. Only people like me know things like this. The thing is, a $$$$$ computer is generally too fragile to have in a harsh stone studio choked with silica dust, flying rocks, hot, cold wet,.... A few compasses and a piece of plywood with a triangle drawn on it takes a lot of punishment in stride. They''re durable and cheap enough for workers use without worries. Little training is needed.

                        The triangle used for calculation as shown is simply a way to exploit the relationship between sides and base. If you speak with a mathematician about this relationship, they should understand it as a known function but will one they rarely or never use. It's like a slide rule- antiquated stuff that works fine but isn't used anymore. After a college degree, calculus, etc, etc, it blew my mind when I was taught these things & started thinking about them. It's so powerful, accurate and simple all at the same time. When pointing a statue, literally hundreds if not a thousand or more values are calculated almost instantly during an 8 hr day with compasses and triangle by laborers who may be barely literate. NO pencil, paper, numbers, math. Not kidding. When you start swinging compasses with a triangle, it's almost like an alternate reality. Hard to describe.

                        To do that Bugatti, this would be the method I would use to loft dimensions from photographs as described for use on a fullsize pattern/job. They may have supplemented these calculated measurements with both careful artistic license, but having accurate dimensions to flesh out is the way I would do it. For 2D work, it's very simple. I have a trusted metal mentor who wold simply look at those pics and build it ( and may give me some teasing about not just doing it that way when he sees this thread) good enough to win the big prizes because that's exactly what he does, but I'm not as good as he is yet.

                        When doing a 3D object- Using the compasses, three at a time for each point X 2 (model and job) is about how these three radii intersect- is much more complicated and challenging to do properly. Imagine 3 spheres that you could superimpose onto each other, maybe like three soap bubbles, so that they each have the same point in common with the other two. The center of the sphere is where one point of the compass in installed. The other end meets the other two radii at that single point, which is not the center of any sphere. Where the centers are located vs where the intersection is is a big deal.

                        The 3D work IS hard to think about until you cross the impasse of comprehension. Not sure how to say it and I mean no insult. It's just tough. So stop thinking about it and just do it like Johann used to tell me to do in the kitchen.

                        - Work on the basic three drawings of diagrams in my last post.

                        -Build your triangle like I described in the post before it- apex point, centered between parallel lines. Swipe an compass from the apex point to mark the parallel lines. draw a triangle and go to work.

                        Do an equilateral triangle for practice without a model or job to confuse you. If you do it properly/accurately, whatever dimension you swipe on the legs from the apex will be exactly the same as the distance between them that parallel to the base. Then construct other triangles to test it, using values that you can easily multiply or divide by a factor <2.

                        After you see that it works, then start to understand it. Don't worry about understanding it yet. Just do it like I've described. Until you can draw a very accurate triangle- properly centered apex point, equal length legs and proper base- it won't make any difference if you understand or not. It won't work. The first thing one needs to understand and do is to learn how to draw an excellent triangle. Start small, do more later. Stop thinking. Start doing. Trust me. When you see it works, it will be easier to comprehend & understand. Do an equilateral triangle (length of sides doesn't matter as long as they are exactly equal) first to proof the method, then do different triangles constructed to specific dimensions to keep stretching your head until the understanding fits. Until that happens, it will never make sense. And if the triangle is not a true isosceles, a line segment drawn between the two swipes on the legs will not be parallel to the base. Easy way to see a mistake.

                        But- once you know- if you tell anyone that might be your competition, then they will know how to do it too... Shhh!

                        Let's see- that's how many MSH members X $1000/each..?. Maybe I'll finally be able to pay off my credit card and buy some parts for my Guzzi..
                        Last edited by cliffrod; 04-11-20, 03:27 AM. Reason: typos, crs, etc...

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                        • #28
                          Cliffy, you are one of the most selfless people I know!

                          Thank you for this trade secret,

                          Cheers Charlie

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                          • cliffrod
                            cliffrod commented
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                            No discounts- nice try Charlie...

                        • #29
                          Some relevant pics of actual results

                          My cousin Andy Hebert (on right) who trained me (on left) to use compasses and triangle with statue he carved using the method. this was taken at the end of my time with my Master Sculptor in 2003.

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                          Another of my Master Sculptors- Giuliano Cecchinelli- with his original model for the Italian monument, which is installed about 1 mile from my Master's studio where Andy and I carved. Pic taken around 1985-86. Stone was installed in 1988

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                          The full size Italian Monument granite statue that Andy and his Master Phil Paini carved using Giulinao's model and enlarged with compasses. Not sure but think it was a simple whole factor (like 4X) so no triangle is need. a compass starts at a beginning point, is then walked along a straight line 4 turns, end is marked and a new larger compass is used to captured the distance from beginning to end point before dimension is transferred to job. Fast, easy and accurate but the model for job has to be more accurately produced to facilitate the method & desired final dimensioning. Andy is in white hat back to camera just to right of statue. My Master Sculptor Gary Sassi is to his right in green coat and blue jeans with back to camera. pic taken by me, Nov 2007

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                          Last but not least, Master Sculptor Dante Rossi (inlaw to me) carved this 1:1 scale Mercedes Benz limousine from one piece of Barre Granite approx 1/2 mile from Gary's studio. He used compasses (without triangle) for general dimensions & reproduction but think he also used a pointing machine for some specific areas. Tradtitional Italian compasses can be seen on the hood/windshield beside suction hose. Taken in studio, which is now the Granite Museum in Barre Vermont- pic from 1982-83 iirc

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                          Installed in New Jersey cemetery

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                          These pics should clarify that these methods are completely relevant to production and reproduction of a vehicle.

                          Someone messaged me and asked a relevant question. A modern Faro Arm, used to digitize a 3D object, locate/measure/resolve suspension gemoetry, etc is simply a modern version of the old fashioned pointing machine that has a digital transmitting contact sensor on the tip vs a sharpened metal point.
                          Last edited by cliffrod; 04-11-20, 03:40 PM.

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