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  • #16
    I found a free .pdf of "The Five Orders of Architecture"

    Great write-ups!

    http://www.chenarch.com/images/arch-...ive-Orders.pdf

    Jake

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    • cliffrod
      cliffrod commented
      Editing a comment
      Very cool- great to see you here, Jake. Welcome to the forum.

  • #17
    Hi Jake welcome to the forum
    Peter T.

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    • #18
      Thanks fellas, happy to be here.

      I used a lot of what you're talking about (although I was unaware of any of the technical terms) for a back half I did for a guy on a CB350. First, the rear swing arm has been stretched 2" to lengthen the wheelbase a bit, and give it a more "racey" feel and allow room for the monoshock. Second, you'll see the monoshock and upper swing arm brace are perpendicular to the angled tube supporting the seat hoop, which is also parallel to the vertical braces on the swing arm. The seat hoop maintains the same horizon line as the bottom of the tank, although slightly elevated (a seat pan will match the bottom tank line (I hope, I'm not making it). In addition, that horizon line is slightly inclined to the rear to give the bike an aggressive look., although it's a bit difficult to see in this picture as it's on uneven ground. Finally, the rear hoop ends in front of the rear axle centerline, and vertex of the tire, again to aid in the aggressive look.



      Click image for larger version  Name:	Raleigh Motor Bike.jpg Views:	0 Size:	229.6 KB ID:	1984

      Stock bike for comparison's sake:

      Click image for larger version  Name:	Stock CB350.jpg Views:	0 Size:	98.6 KB ID:	1987
      Last edited by memphisrain; 25-10-19, 03:31 PM.

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      • #19
        Originally posted by memphisrain View Post
        Thanks fellas, happy to be here.

        I used a lot of what you're talking about (although I was unaware of any of the technical terms) for a back half I did for a guy on a CB350. First, the rear swing arm has been stretched 2" to lengthen the wheelbase a bit, and give it a more "racey" feel and allow room for the monoshock. Second, you'll see the monoshock and upper swing arm brace are perpendicular to the angled tube supporting the seat hoop, which is also parallel to the vertical braces on the swing arm. The seat hoop maintains the same horizon line as the bottom of the tank, although slightly elevated (a seat pan will match the bottom tank line (I hope, I'm not making it). In addition, that horizon line is slightly inclined to the rear to give the bike an aggressive look., although it's a bit difficult to see in this picture as it's on uneven ground. Finally, the rear hoop ends in front of the rear axle centerline, and vertex of the tire, again to aid in the aggressive look.



        Click image for larger version Name:	Raleigh Motor Bike.jpg Views:	0 Size:	229.6 KB ID:	1984

        Stock bike for comparison's sake:

        {"alt":"Click image for larger version Name:\tStock CB350.jpg Views:\t0 Size:\t98.6 KB ID:\t1987","data-align":"none","data-":"1987","data-size":"full"}
        It's great to see what you're working on, Jake. I had to learn about most of this design theory & application along the way and after the fact. Being able to articulate the specifics has helped a lot when discussing projects with patrons. When I can easily explain the "why", it builds confidence in relationships and ultimately in your portfolio. That's the end goal. Hopefully discussing it here might help others do the same.

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        • #20
          When developing a 3D composition, especially from 2D methods, it's important to understand the difference between drawing a line and creating an edge. Many people don't actively consider this fact preemptively. When the actual 3D form is made, it can be difficult to justify it with the 2D renderings. Drawing several views of the same object can help, but only if these drawings represent a shape with edges that can properly transition between the various representations.

          i have worked with many drawings of sculpture projects that lack complete information. Usually there will be areas that are just shaded. Big fail. I can't carve a shadow. I have to create shape that creates shadow while also carving something in that shadowed area. Drawing a curved or complex shape to be made from metal presents the same challenges. Adding a few scribbles isn't enough and Miscommunication is a very real risk. Sometimes a fanciful shape will be shown from one perspective that is completely impractical or impossible to justify with surrounding detail.

          make sure to consider how the proposed shape will create the edge that the line in a drawing describes. Make sure to properly address how shape can cause a line to change, as well as top vs bottom or inside vs outside of the shape. It's not hard to overlook little things, especially if you are working alone. If you're fielding drawing done by someone else, be prepared to address them in a professional manner. Most regular customers don't "see" in shapes- they can only comprehend a finished shape, not the means to achieve that shape. many 2D artists never have to produce or transition their concepts into 3D and will assume the 3D expert will automatically know what they mean, That's why I strive to do as much of not all of my own artwork in 2D and 3D. Compared to others I see as talented artists, I'm not a very good 2D artist or draftsman. But, if I draw it, I can address all the pitfalls I can recognize as soon as possible. I get better at every job. Practice is always good.

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          • #21
            Below is content regarding development of a custom automotive grill. Thought I should include similar content in this thread.

            It's necessary to consider the context and lighting in which the composition will be viewed. When I cut a stone in studio, what it looks like in studio is largely irrelevant. This is a detail many sculptors who are not professionally trained will overlook. 16'-20' to the rafters seems huge compared to an 8' shop ceiling but means nothing compared to the sky outdoors. I have to produce work to demonstrate properly in supremely overwhelming natural light and the giant studio of the outdoors. Natural light is so invasive that it clarifies details (good and bad) that no electric light can. A huge job in studio is tiny outdoors. The big jobs always shrink as they go out the door and then shrink even more once they're installed... It's just another way God and the stone humbles the sculptor.

            Details can be 100% dimensionally accurate per specs but still look vastly different whether indoors or outdoors- especially actual penetrations and negative space between solid surfaces. Solid or continous mass is impacted differently, but is also perceived differently indoors vs outdoors.

            Everything I sculpt and carve is done with these things in mind. The work has to be successful in the context of the installation, not in the artificial and temporary manipulated context of the studio. I have to understand what I think looks right now and what will look right then to succeed.

            An item like a custom automotive grill will be primarily experienced outdoors, not the confines of a small (by comparison) shop. I would address many of these grill considerations with the vehicle outside. Both negative space between solids and illumination of components now hidden in darkness will be more readily perceived. You may find the things now concealed in shadow behind the grill are a bigger issue visually. Addressing such details often impact the more superficial components. Simply moving it outside will shrink details, probably even lightening the shadows between the grill bars. That could make the grill bars appear thicker and the holes between them look not quite as big.

            Natural light is a very powerful factor. It is different in color than much artificial light and is of much higher energy than artificial light. In translating a concept from 2D to 3D, you transition from drawing/defining a line to creating an edge to represent that drawn line. this can be the physical end of a object or the viewed end of a receding shape. Natural light bounces off surrounding objects all around, behind and beneath an object. This additional light can backlight an object and change the way that end or edge of shape is viewed. Detail and edges may be softened or even disappear. It's nice to manage and manipulate light very specifically in studio/shop but it's critical to incorporate significant outdoor study (ideally at different times with different light conditions) into the design process.

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            • #22
              Great thread, its good to know there are proper terms for concepts that we innately understand but have been unable to describe, like the 'Golden Rule', I knew there had to be one but this is the first time I've learned it had a proper name and ratio. thanks for that. It looks like I'll need to do some reading.

              Comment


              • #23
                Originally posted by ojh View Post
                Great thread, its good to know there are proper terms for concepts that we innately understand but have been unable to describe, like the 'Golden Rule', I knew there had to be one but this is the first time I've learned it had a proper name and ratio. thanks for that. It looks like I'll need to do some reading.
                Welcome to the forum.

                A good point to remember is that these "rules" have more to do with providing a consistent way to quantitatively describe or produce aspect ratios like height vs width than being an absolute standard for every situation. Nature is full of minor variations that make objects and organisms look appealing and unique while still being quickly and easily interpreted by the viewer. When the variations are averaged together, the resulting values and ratios provide the basis for the rules.

                Being successful as an artist or craftsman often means intentionally manipulating these "rules" in a subtle but obvious way without overdoing it to produce a specifc result. My goal here is to make others better aware of things they may already know but not understand or employ deliberately, simply because no one has ever told them. These rules and theories are just more tools in a toolbox.

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                • #24
                  I had a call today about a pending stone project. The details discussed are relevant here.

                  A composition or specific area of a composition will have an overall horizontal, vertical or neutral (horizontal & vertical are equal/equivalent) characteristic. Details included in the composition/area can be used to guide or direct the viewer. This is related to visual noise. The detail can facilitate, arrest or foil the act of viewing.

                  For example relevant here, consider these three functions regarding the area of transition between a horizontal hood/cowl to windshield to roof on a custom car.

                  Facilitate- the detail used is a rearward-angled windshield, sloping away from the hood to guide the viewer's eye to the roof quickly. The angle of the windshield is employed to help the windshield (or A pillars) disappear. It only prompts a quick look by the viewer with no need to stop and think. The detail is so obvious and logical, it disappears. No visual noise. In terms of the car, this is a streamlined look meant to make the car look faster, modern and more efficient.

                  Arrest- the detail used is a vertical windshield, basically square to the hood and roof. This makes it an obvious transition as a direct change in height. The viewer sees and comprehends this detail instantaneously. No need to stop and think about it, but it is an obvious and definitive detail with a clear beginning and end. This is minor visual noise, but can be significant. Think of an early Ford Model T coupe, called a "phone booth" with the dominant large vertical detail in comparisons to a later Model A or 1932 Ford with still vertical but much shorter vertical windshield. Such a square transition windshield is a stoic detail, somewhat archaic or meant to show a disregard for some or all streamlining. Combined with a big (visible) engine in a hotrod, it conveys a sense of gross or excess power that can easily overcome such obstacles.

                  Foil- the detail used is something like a windshield visor, added above the windshield to extend away from the windshield/roof intersection back over the hood. In a streamlined composition, like most cars are, this detail can confound a viewer. (This is strong visual noise). The viewer will see this detail and have to stop in some manner to evaluate the combination of the windshield/A pillar angle, the roof intersection, the visor shape and angle, etc. making the viewer stop, look and think about this detail or area of detail is a deliberate ploy. This detail is more appropriate to pleasure use than performance because a detail like that doesn't fit as well on a high performance race car.

                  When designing a composition or composition detail, take into consideration how you want a viewer to interpret what you are producing. The use of a proper detail,especially at points of transition, can strengthen your result. Some people squint, especially in low light, to see which parts of a composition are dominant and which ones disappear or become fuzzy first. Once they're identified, it's easier to isolate and then fine tune them to direct the viewing experience.

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                  • #25
                    After another discussion in an alternate universe, thought the info might be worthy here as well. The example of a perfectly flat (no crown) roof was presented in a discussion about establishing a beltline detail on a new panel with straight vs curved aspect to the detail-

                    I regularly make the point that that a person's eyes are often a lot smarter than they are. Recognizing a straight line, square corner or perfect circle or lack thereof is virtually instantaneous. People focused upon a project can lose perspective and no longer see what is obvious to fresh eyes. Take a break. Get away. Clear your mind and trust what you see when you come back to work. An experience craftsman has learned to see what's there and trust what he sees. It's not as simple as it sounds.

                    In nature, a perfectly flat line or plane like the surface of still water or the top of settled contents of a container is understood to be a orderly result of what we now know as nature, gravity, mass, etc. If such a container is at all flexible, the sides will bow under the strain of a substantial load. this is normal. People see this situation and quickly make a judgment about the present forces. There's also little in a living organism that is normally perfectly straight, square, circular or symmetrical. Some variation makes a living organism or representation of one look more alive.

                    The concept of entasis in architecture is a successful means to convey strength, force and mass in structure by employing curvature or swell in line. It most often applies to deliberately varying cross sectional dimensions of columns, but is functionally the same as described with a detail line appearing to swell upward against gravity instead of flexing outward to support/restrain mass against a vertical force. It may be so nominal that the column sides (or detail line) appear straight but the eye comprehends the minor variation. If the column sides are each perfectly straight, whether parallel or skewed, they look wimpy, weak or unsafe in comparison.

                    Deliberately achieving it harmoniously can be a challenge, especially as a single line vs a pair of symmetrical lines. There are some general ratios/formulas for entasis to guide composition. The Five Orders of Architecture by Vignola do not talk about metalshaping, but have information about concepts like entasis that are worth understanding if you are designing work.

                    When I carve a proper panel on a stone, it will have a slight swell- center will be higher than the edges. Correctly done, it looks more compelling, more powerful, more alive as it swells towards the viewer. If it's perfectly flat, it looks concave to the viewer or like a machine cut it. Big fail.

                    Just like a flat roof on a $$$ car...

                    It's also worthwhile to remember that the reference lines in or on a vehicle need to be considered in the desired FINAL state. If you're doing a motorcycle tank and have the bike on a center stand during the mock-up, you might not be happy with the composition once it's down on the suspension. Belt lines on panels for vehicles can will have similar changes in spatial orientation once the car is resting upon the suspension.

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                    • #26
                      Very interesting discussion. Thanks Cliff.

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                      • #27
                        I thought about this detail, maybe already here but don't think it is.

                        using a mirror to proof a design is really effective. I'm sure I've mentioned that. But I have not mentioned how most people do not think that pictures of them actually look like they envision themselves to look. This is the most basic example of this mirror exercise. the only way a person can see themselves in most tangible life situation is with a reflection in mirror or water. So they are seeing the reverse of what is depicted in a photograph. Given two pics- one as taken and the same pic reversed, you'll find the subject finds the reversed image to be a more true likeness.

                        Working with a mirror or reversed images is a good way to isolate visual noise that interferes with a design so it can be controlled and managed. Producing perfect symmetry may seem desirable, but it can make a composition sterile and less organic or lifelike. One of the aspects that makes the sensuous curves and shapes of the machines that many of us like is that they are not perfectly symmetrical. They are close enough in symmetry to easily make sense to a viewer, but are perceptively asymmetrical enough to appear more organic than false and forced into perfected symmerty,

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                        • #28
                          Yep That modern day P.C stuff precludes me from appreciating the rich code. I find it fascinating that fib codes pervade so many spheres. Art ,design, buildings , commerce. Its as if humanity was pre wired to have an expectation of what works and what doesn't. We seem to have an underlying appreciation for form and appearance but we just don't know why. Please tell us a little more Cliffy as it certainly goes a long way to explaining why we as humans ( in particular males ) react to some shapes while being indifferent to others

                          A bottle of Coke is a bottle of Pepsi as far as liquid goes. Its the form of the bottle that changes the value and perception of the liquid.

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                          • #29
                            Johnny, I'll try to keep including whatever I can.

                            I regularly tell people that your brain (or eye) is smarter than you are. This is about that innate quality that makes things instantly look right or wrong or stand out compared to others. There are some consistent facts that support this right/wrong perception. Nearly everyone can look at a line or circle and tell if it's perfectly straight or round in a glance. These unlearned portions of knowledge are critical to the craftsman. By learning about the facts and reasons behind patterns & shapes like the golden ratio, fibonacci number, orders of architecture, you can more deliberately produce the work that you intend to produce. IMHO, The intent to do something partnered with the fluent ability to do it as intended is the basis of a craftsman. No pin-the-tail-on-the-donkey or abstract modern art crap.

                            It goes to the second mind I've mentioned. You learn to do properly by having a Master shape you into the craftsman you can be. Total submission, humility, realization you're simply lucky that he'll invest time in your dumb ass because that's all you're bringing to the table. So you just say "yes sir" and do what he says & he hopes you wont turn out to be another piece of scrap in his life. You do what he says not because it makes sense to you, but because it makes sense to him. the goal is that one day it will make sense to you. Again- like other posts I've made. "No, no, no- you don't understand" means you don't yet have the experience to comprehend it fully. Those things you learn become rote, Subconscious, as automatic as breathing.

                            Watch Peter work. Does he stop, contemplate & study the next hammer or dolly, check the face with a radius gauge and do the same with the panel and then proceed carefully..? No, he's more likely to have the next hammer or dolly in his hand and on the work faster than he can verbalize to you which one he needs now. You blinked and didn't even see him change tools. He's so familiar with these basics that the student will impede his progress. the only time he doesn't instantly have the right tool in his hand is when it's not sitting where he thought it was when he reaches for it. Know what I mean? That's where each of us needs to be. You "know" and do even without actively thinking, just like you breathe or walk & balance without active thought compelling each muscle to participate. There are times when you must slow down, but not for the basic stuff.

                            the aspects of design and composition- about which I am only barely knowledgeable but learning- need to be just as automatic. The more you familiarize yourself with them, the less you will stumble. That will help you move forward. You'll look at something and trust your judgment when you immediately think "that's not right". It may not be about designing or composing a shape instead of simply evaluating a shape and seeing it is not symmetrical, properly crowned or straight, etc. as you service it. It's just one more tool in your skill set. Hopefully you'll also either have the skills to remedy the problem or the humility to ask your Master to correct you. Respect his investment in you by not wasting it.

                            This unknown/subconscious issue is why I am so negative towards allowing any idiot more than a single passing opportunity to FOREVER corrupt your mind. Call a spade a spade and leave it there. Nothing to see here- move along. Your mind is not large enough to let those people have any room in there. when the proshapers spread their influence enough, their people don't know enough to question & understand what they don't know. along the way, the actual truth and facts get buried (if not lost) in convenience. Push a button or spend a dollar and it's solved. No one actually makes it. It comes from a machine or special contraption.

                            You know how many times I've heard that actual statement by people in the studio & in this business? They want to see the machine that makes what I do. They think I'm being a smart ass when I tell them I AM the machine. I had a big head-butt over a recent project competition with a board member who thought my $100K fee was outrageous compared to the other two competitors whose fees were approx $5K-$10K each. I explained I was doing all of the sculpture work myself with my own two hands in my own studio start to finish, not subcontracting it out to other companies to do $100K-$150K of the work for me like they were doing. The rest of the board understood completely, but that one guy thought I was the dishonest spawn of Satan trying to rob them blind. Then I didn't get the job, even though I was around $15K under their budget to accommodate their final customization. Go figure.

                            I think I'm too ADD to function as well from a screen as I can from a plain old book. I also cant see anything well on a little screen. I'll probably have to get one of those giant flat screen TVs and find room for it in my shop. Otherwise, I'll get distracted or forget what I was going to do walking between the house and shop.

                            Dont get me started on soda bottles. One proshaper in my stone world, who passes himself off as a master of design and sculpture as well as a sculptor, instructs his sheeple at his $$$ classes to find inspiration in things like soda or dish soap bottles for appealing shapes to incorporate into "original" memorial designs. what a load of crap. If he taught them about syma recta forms, sine waves and such he would be teaching them how to fish instead of just throwing them a dead herring.

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                            • #30
                              Another consideration for design is current trends. This is particularly important if you aspire to produce a marketable new item. Before you scoff at the latest fashion, style or way something is produced or customized, step back and try to view the larger picture. I've mentioned how elements may be used to echo (simulate but bot duplicate) past elements. A recent trend is the growing trapezoidal grill design of many cars. I'm not a fan but this seems to have been the culmination of both growing grill area joining with lower air dams finally being incorporated into a single element.

                              The point is not necessarily to duplicate or further exaggerate the element. Sometimes that works. That's why grills have gotten so large in recent years. Other times, you can subdue such an exaggerated element of a composition while still using an echo of it. It can help the viewer accept your interpretation because they find some familiarity within it where a completely novel (new) interpretation might make them stumble in confusion (visual noise). Once they begin to lose interest, you have to work harder to recover them as an admirer. Help them move past things that should be familiar and easy to understand.

                              iirc, If you look at current Tesla models, some have a very round smooth front end with no evidence of any grill opening. To me as a car guy, this looks odd. Other models have a flat psuedo grill area with a character line surround. It looks like you could just cut the grill opening if you like. Regardless, those cars look less odd to me than the rounded & closed versions. I don't keep coming back to that weird front end, much like you cannot stop staring at that piece of broccoli stuck between someone's front teeth...

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