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**cliffrod** · 01-10-19, 02:12 PM

I agree, Reedy. During the recent Redneck Roundup, I was talking about the same sentiments with a few others. It's a waste of our valuable time together to focus on the wrong things. Wife #3 doesn't usually care how Wife #2 or even Wife #1 would have done it. Ask me how I know.

Not agreeing with another forum/format/method is missing the point. AMS opened a significant door for me. I met everyone I know here through AMS. I learned about MSH via AMS. I'm here on MSH because I want to learn more about traditional methods that I wasn't finding elsewhere. Graduating from Divorce U prepared me to be a better husband. Life is better now that I have moved on.

Granted, I did accidentally find Peter's Monaro quarter panel video many years ago when it only had a few hundred views but that didn't make us fast friends.... its great to have a direct audience with him now via MSH.

edit- I will add that I want to understand the "why" about many long discussed metal-working methods. As a chef- both while teaching culinary school and training/apprenticing employees- I found being able to explain the basic physics and chemistry of a process led to much more efficient learning. Calling other chefs names or just being an ass & saying "do it because I said so" didn't work as well. Sometimes there wasn't time to explain at that moment, but being able to articulate the specifics of what was really happening created better new craftsmen & a deeper trust between Master & Apprentice. Understanding what doesn't work & why is important. There's no need to dwell upon it,

**Chazza** · 02-10-19, 12:31 AM

The best information I have found about metal-shaping has come from the masters, who have been apprenticed in the trade and worked at it for years. I have found them on 3 forums and I keep records of the gems that they hint at in their posts, for future reference.

This is just a different forum, where the traditional methods are explained perfectly – the next best thing to being trained by the master in his or her workshop.

Other forums have their uses, but for myself, this one is the most enjoyable and most useful.

I still visit the others,

Cheers Charlie

**Peter Tommasini** · 02-10-19, 02:25 AM

Guys speaking for my self about this subject

I am not trying to be critical or making bad comments to other metalshapers or forums, it is true that one can learn some tricks and methods from the other forums

, what I am talking about is the fact that in some cases the wrong methods has been shown and practiced, and this can cost time and money to someone that is just starting...............let me give you an example ......''.A HOT DOG DIE '' was introduced on you tube and on the forums, it was brought and used by many beginners thinking that that was the way to make a return ... well that is not true !

It's simply a useless gadget used and introduced by someone with a big fat 0 metalshaping experience . then we have someone, that has a lot of following and teaches metalshaping with a method gadgets and tools that simply does not work, or it takes 3 times the time to do a job

or how about this one ....... to do a tuck, then close the tuck from the back, rather then the front , then ....we have another gadget that members of other forum have brought and use ... and that is the..... ''doughnut dolly'' .....another stupid gadget

and these are just a few! .......I guess what I am trying to say is that beginners needs to learn with proper tools and proper methods, and simply not to practice and learn without understanding the proper theory behind each application

If someone here thinks that I have been critical please simply watch Geoff Moss, David Gardener, Mark Nudgent https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpRIErednbA and many other professional and see if they use the methods gadgets and tools mention above

Peter T.

**neilb** · 02-10-19, 02:27 AM

hope you had a great holiday reedy

**Bill Tromblay** · 02-10-19, 05:08 AM

Hi,

I agree with Peter. My metal shaping knowledge started just a few years ago, with the help of Peter and several other great guys that I now call friends. I have been lead down the rabbit hole more than once by a gadget guru with the ginzu knife cure all for metal shaping. My knowledge and training is continually expanding with more and more emphasis on traditional practice and techniques. Thanks for creating this group.

Bill

**neilb** · 02-10-19, 01:24 PM

it's funny, i've written 3 replies to this thread and ended up deleting them all lol. i think the contributing members have the right to respond to how they feel the forum is going. i hope it's going the way we initially intended, and that was to provide a platform where real skills could be passed on.

thank you all for being part of this forum and sharing not only metal shaping but other things too. i am following cliffy with his stone work and it shows a great deal of his character which is very interesting to see

**RockHillWill** · 03-10-19, 02:11 PM

Two thing here, One, that 'Cliffy', 'Cliffrod' or Clint is indeed a talented guy in several areas, and I am proud to have made his acquaintance!

Second: Under the best of conditions, I am a mediocre metal shaper and I appreciate the fact that those that are very talented allow me to hang around them. My first metal meet was at the home of a gentleman that built his own 'equipment' and that made me believe he was metal shaping 'genius', and I followed his lead for quite some time. But as I got exposed to some other craftsman's ideas and input, and began to think out some ideas on my own, he and I seemed to be unable to have a civil conversation about our different lines of thinking, for which I feel bad about as he did get me deeply interested in metal shaping, for which I am grateful. When I was figuring out that I had little natural talent, I was prone to buy and/or build some of the 'trick tools' and built 5 fabricated wheeling machines and attended a large number of 'classes' hoping to increase my skill level, but I was still not getting much better at this profession. Then I met Peter, and at the Oblong, Illinois meet he showed me HIS technic on HIS wheeling machine and the light went on for me! I now have a profound admiration for those that have mastered the art of metal shaping using the old established procedures.

My thanks to Peter for his never ending willingness to share his talents with me and others, and for those that have provided this site so that more folks have the same ability to do so.

**OldnEK** · 04-10-19, 02:03 PM

Im not tagging anyone, Peter!, I have followed you since you did those articles in Performance Mag and Budget Builds in the late 80's on Metalshaping and Panel Beating, and you have taught me so much without even knowing me that well.
My comment in the post is not to detract anyone here or make judgement, just speak with open opinions and unbiased comments. I used to frequent the other forums, but choose not to do so anymore due to the same reason. Just like Politicians, you no longer listen>
I believe Neil and others have set this forum up with the views of teaching and showcasing everyones work, Professional, advanced, amateur and hobbyist. To keep these traditions alive at the generosity of professional instruction is not taken for granted, but for the sake of everyone trying to improve and know correct ways on how to go about the process that they are undertaking.
Personally I feel the need to ague or disagree with what someone else is trying to promote or think is the correct way to go about methods other than ones own, is that the opinion of one to the another. So feel the need to discuss, is great. On the other hand argue against ones choice is not so great.
In essence if you like one particular way and not the other, then go down the route you choose, I see no need to argue a point or put ones idea down.
Like all the tools in world cannot make you a better trades person, but if you had half and idea it can make all the difference, unless you know exactly what is going on, you can struggle till the cows come home, and with continuation from forums like this cows come home much earlier.

Cheers Reedy

**Kiwi john** · 09-10-19, 12:56 PM

Hi Guys

I hope you had a great trip Johnny. I went to the mail box every day but didn't get a postcard !!!!!

I have been standing back quietly and as Neil said, have drafted a few replies......... However, Neil and I made the decision to create a forum solely dedicated to preserving and promoting old school traditional metal shaping techniques. Part of the reason we did this was to address the issue of craftsmen feeling that they had to defend themselves virtually any time they posted a reply or comment. We found it insulting that the guys who had dedicated their careers to pursuing their craft were basically hung out to dry if they weren't part of the inner circle. As far as I am concerned if you are going to hang a "GURU" plaque on your wall and CHARGE others for your knowledge the you had better have the credentials to back it up.

I am happy for the discussion to continue as most newbies will have no idea that what they see on youtube etc is just one way. Virtually all the professional metal shapers who have earn't a living from paid customer work will not participate on forums because the moderators confuse their ability to moderate with their ability to shape metal !

I won't tolerate any personal attacks but I don't have a problem with intelligent discussion that is backed with results

We are all big kids and we don't have egos so I would assume that the pent up frustrations will subside !!!!

We are here to share and learn and I would hope respect and tolerance will be part of that experience. spoken with love Johnny

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